I understand that having Fedora in the name can bring some expectations and that changing these might be hard, but I think it is good to remember that the first FCOS release is not even 2 years old [0]. FCOS has a different release model than Fedora Linux and I think it is fair to give it time to, on one hand continue to improve how features are making their way in FCOS, and on the other hand get people be more familiar with what FCOS is and what expectations to have about it.If I may, I think the issue is right there in the name: Fedora CoreOS. The Fedora name brings some expectations and it seems CoreOS, by its nature, can’t be at parity with the other Fedora flavors and that leads to confusion. I can attest that I was surprised when I learned Fedora CoreOS didn’t support cgroups v2 and that confused me; it’s Fedora, of course it would have the latest-n-greatest.
I used CoreOS before it bought by RH, and I could accept whatever limitations it had because there were no expectations. Here’s a specialized distro that does things in its own way.
I’m guessing this is laughably not possible, but I’m going to suggest anyway that maybe it be renamed either back to simply “CoreOS” or something new like “Bowler” or whatever that indicates that it is its own special thing and expectations can be set accordingly.
_______________________________________________On 20 May 2021, at 2:24, Clement Verna wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 22:48, Joe Doss <joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:45 AM Clement Verna
> <cverna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> I think this is the fundamental difference here, Fedora CoreOS does
>> not have a version number. It has 3 streams, stable, testing and
>> next, these streams are based on a version of Fedora Linux but that
>> should just be a detail that most end users should not have to care
>> about.
I disagree here. Fedora CoreOS has the Fedora name in it and it should
have the same fundamental features and changes that ship with each
Fedora release. To say it doesn't have a base version and that users
shouldn't care about it is pretty dismissive.Sorry if that sounded dismissive, but that's really how I feel. I recognize that I have a bias towards thinking that most FCOS users are similar to my profile.I am a developer and I don't have a strong interest in the OS, I just expect it to work and provide me the tools needed to do my job. To me that's the beauty of FCOS, I get a solid, tested OS that get automated updates and just works, I honestly don't care to know which version of Fedora Linux it is based on or which features it has. I want to spin-up an instance make sure that my application works and forget about it.I also understand that there are other type of users that will care much more about the base OS than me:-).
>> Another difference is that Fedora CoreOS has automatic updates and
>> if we want our users to trust these automatic updates we need them
>> to be rock solid. This leads to Fedora CoreOS being more
>> conservative on how changes are rolled out to users, taking the
>> example rolling out cgroups v2 in the Fedora 31 time frame would
>> have broken all users that are using Docker to run their containers
>> and this was not acceptable :-).
>>
>> If some users are getting confused and get curious about why there
>> are these differences and learn more about how Fedora CoreOS works,
>> that's a good thing IMO :-)
Confusing and frustrating your users is a bad thing.
On 5/19/21 6:54 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> No. This is a cop-out and a bad answer. The reason this happened is
> because Fedora CoreOS historically has not participated in the
> development of Fedora Linux, including the Changes process, and
> generally rolled back features instead of adapting with them during
> the development cycle.
>
> It's not like making changes and breaking upgrades is acceptable in
> Fedora Linux either. It's just that the Fedora CoreOS WG has not
> participated in the main development process and rolled back changes
> instead of adapting to them, which has frustrated pretty much
> everyone. The containers team in particular was extremely unhappy to
> find out cgroup v1 was still used in FCOS. I was pretty cheesed off
> when I discovered the sqlite rpmdb feature was rolled back in FCOS.
>
> In general, I'm not pleased with how Fedora CoreOS does this.
> Hopefully they will do better in the future.
I'll echo Neal's sentiment here. This is a cop-out and bad answer.
It is frustrating to consume FCOS only to see features that are in the
current release of Fedora are rolled back. Even in today's FCOS WG
meeting I brought up adding in zswap to FCOS and it is shelved until
Kubernetes adds for support swap enabled systems.
The RHCOS and Openshift teams should be back porting these breaking
changes, so FCOS can look to the future with Fedora. FCOS should not be
shackled by limits imposed by RHCOS/Openshift/Kubernetes.
Joe
--
Joe Doss
joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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