On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 02:01:05PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > On 26/06/20 08:43 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 01:27:54PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > > > On 26/06/20 09:22 -0300, Sergio Belkin wrote: > > > > Really do we believe that setting nano as a default editor will attract new > > > > users to Linux? How many end users in last years use Debian because of the > > > > default editor change? A newbie generally does know nothing about vi/vim, > > > > cron, git, etc... > > > > > > The proposal doesn't say it will *attract* new users. I think the > > > point is to not frustrate users who have already decided to try Fedora. > > > > Do we have real stasitics on this (somthing in the form of bz reports or > > comments on a list) indicating that users actually are frustrated with being > > Finding/using Bugzilla or a mailing list are apparently almost as > arcane as using vi to many people, even developers. > > I can't find any questions about it at ask.fedoraproject.org, but that > probably isn't most people's first place to go for help anyway. > And thats fine, I'd stipulate that stackoverflow is probably de rigueur these days for people to ask and answer questions. The goal more was to get feedback "from the horses mouth" so to speak, rather than to presume we fully understand what the pain point is here. > > confronted with vi unexpectedly? Given the initially presented use case (having > > git-commit or git-rebase pop up vi as the default editor), I'm struggling with > > the notion that an individual user is sufficiently skilled to use git on the > > command line, yet struggles to find information on the editor git uses by > > There are thousands of "how to use git" pages describing using the > command line TUI. I bet only the better pages think to mention using vi. > I'd agree with that, but I'd also suggest that there are thousands of "how to use vi" pages describing how to navigate the editor. The only bit that I think is missing is the connection to help people realize what editor they are using. > Users familiar with version control from another OS might want to try > doing it on the command line in Fedora, and stumble when they get to > the editor step. > Thats fair, and this is actually an interesting point. I think (correct me if I'm wrong), that those users are likely comming from an environment that is graphical in nature, and for those users, the "big step" so to speak is less about the choice of editor, and more about the movement from a gui to a tui or cli. In those cases, nano might help some, but its still going to be a very foreign environment, they're still going to have to figure out that ^x means Ctrl-x, etc, and for that they may still have to go ask a question somewhere. > > default. It seems somewhat inconsistent to me. Thats not to say its not a real > > problem, but it feels a bit like we're taking action on an issue that may not be > > a problem, at the expense of existing users that like the environment the way it > > is. > > See > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/message/4XS6ZYUO4K3OY46MSJQOLBPEKCXZFAE4/ > for actual numbers, to be taken with a large pinch of salt (we have no > way to know how relevant those searches are to Fedora users). Yeah, the referenced article: https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/05/23/stack-overflow-helping-one-million-developers-exit-vim/ is interesting, both for the explicit fact that 1,000,000 people had to ask how to exit vi (bad), and for the more subtle implicit fact that, at least 1,000,000 people are using vi, got the answer to the question they were looking for (good), and presumably kept using vi (unknown). Interesting side note (possibly unrelated), there are almost no questions on stackoverflow related to how to change the default editor (at least that my limited searching skills can find). Best Neil > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
