On Monday, December 16, 2019 12:20:32 AM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > First, I haven't claimed it's not getting tested. Sorry, must have been a misunderstanding on my part. > Second, you have used a fallacy of circular reasoning. The test is > being done because it's required to be done. That the test is being > done is not a supporting fact that testing should be compulsory. That is simply not the case. The test is being done to ensure that users can still install Fedora using optical media. > That it's usually a full time Red Hat employee doing the testing, > suggests that this criterion is not important to the community - > except apparently when it comes time to complain about dropping the > release criterion. By "the community", you mean "developers" here? The users just use it. All they care about is whether or not it works. They don't want to be involved in making sure it continues to work. I've already volunteered to help out in this thread. This is important for users. > > Please see above. Additionally, there is no reason to be hostile about > > this. > > > Please don't waste your time, you can't make me angry. I wouldn't attempt to do so. > > That is, by definition, not hyperbole. It was meant to be taken seriously, > > and is an issue that needs to be addressed. > > > I refuse because the word you used has a meaning contrary to the facts at > hand: > ar·bi·trar·y > /ˈärbəˌtrerē/ > adjective: arbitrary > based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. This is based on random choice and personal whim, not objective reasoning. That there is a process does not mean that the outcome is based on anything more than various individuals' personal opinions. > This proposal is not based on anyone's personal whim. The change > process being used are not based on whim. They are part of a rational > system, one which you are mischaracterizing and prejudging the > outcome. You do this by claiming the process is random when plainly it > is not at all random. It has a structure that you merely do not like, > not that it is lacking in structure. It is not *random*, but see above. > >This is not the only change I am > > > > referring to. We've been in the habit of dropping things that work, with > > no real reasons lately. For example, look at dropped x86 support, and > > soon we will be dropping Python 2. We have already had several Python 2 > > packages dropped simply because they refused to move to Python 3. This is > > an ongoing issue, where everything considered "old" is just abandoned, > > and it is hurting the user base. It is clear that is where we're headed > > with this Change as well. As soon as these tests don't need to be done > > before a release, they won't be done before a release, and we'll have a > > release that has broken CD/ DVD images. > > > Why demand that people become emotionally traumatized in advance of > fantasy bugs, instead of sticking to facts and logical arguments? You > do a disservice to valid arguments in favor of retaining the release > criterion. Emotionally traumatized? Fantasy bugs? I'm afraid that I don't know what you're referring to. What I've described is precisely what WILL happen, if this Change is accepted. That is precisely what this sets us up for. > You are pulling off a bandaid on old wounds, making a false connection > between them and this one, and then appeal to the users as higher > authority. And it amounts to sadfishing, and doing so on their behalf > without their permission. I've told you before, I will not participate > in these attempts at emotional manipulation. You've mischaracterized my argument as an appeal to emotion. It is not. I'm stating what will happen. I'm saying this because it has happened in the past with several issues that started out in a similar manner. > There are many hundreds of bugs fixed prior to each release, and they > are discovered and fixed by the Fedora community despite no release > criterion existing. Additionally, many are not, especially not before the actual release. If this is not a release blocker, Fedora WILL have a release with broken CD/DVD install media. I suspect that would occur within two releases, though that's just my estimate. -- John M. Harris, Jr. Splentity _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
