On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 14:10, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:22 PM Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 09:22, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 6:46 AM Pierre-Yves Chibon <pingou@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >
>>
>> There are two issues to unpack here:
>>
>> 1. We use a weird custom backend and custom protocol extensions.
>>
>> This should definitely be replaced if it makes sense. It’s more urgent
>> now that RHEL 6 is going EOL next year, and FAS 2 is still a Python
>> 2.6 application. FAS 3 *would* have fixed it, but interest by the FAS
>> developers died a while ago…
>>
>> Naturally, the replacement is equally in a poor state, but may have
>> some legs someday: https://github.com/fedora-infra/noggin
>>
>> 2. Ipsilon development was only considered important as part of being
>> tech preview in RHEL and now it’s not.
>>
>> There are some major problems here. First of all, Ipsilon development
>> has been gated by a single person. That person also seems to have
>> trouble making time to review pull requests. There has been interest
>> from the broader community about using and contributing to Ipsilon,
>> since unlike Keycloak, it is written in an accessible language
>> (Python).
>>
>> Getting Ipsilon to Python 3 would be enough for me to get started on
>> bootstrapping some of the other interested parties onto Ipsilon, and
>> hopefully give us a more sustainable community long-term.
>>
>> A final note here, I’m generally disappointed in how inaccessible
>> infrastructure resources are to the broader community, and while a
>> community OpenShift will alleviate some of that, I’m concerned that
>> more sophisticated services would still require the crap workflow we
>> have now for community vs infra. I’ve had thoughts about how to make
>> that better on a broader basis, but that’s probably for another time…
>>
>>
>
> I don't know what is worse.. that if we try to improve things by saying we can't maintain everything we are crap, or if we don't try to improve things by maintaining stuff poorly we are crap. Do you want to beat us in the morning or evening or just both times so you can work out your frustrations on how badly we do stuff?
>
Again my comments were not helpful and not useful for this conversation.
My frustration is that people who aren’t working at Red Hat have *no*
avenue to help support the Project’s infrastructure. Granted, this
isn’t exclusively a Fedora thing. CentOS has this problem, and
openSUSE is worse, since all of their maintenance scripts are
completely private behind a VPN that only SUSE employees have access
to.
I will be the first to admit that the various programs Infrastructure has run to try and get community members have not worked well. The problem being that the apprentice program and others need a lot more day to day hands on training we don't have time to do while trying to keep the ship from burning to the waterline. That means that while we try to get people involved, it turns into a large amount of we aren't available when the apprentice/newperson is and they aren't when we are.
That said, we are putting everyone including new Red Hat people through being an apprentice before they get to join a sysadmin group. Then they are added to various sysadmin-* groups that fit the work they are doing.
But what is the point of saying stuff like this when we don’t have a
way to be a part of it? You’ve basically handed down ultimatums to the
entirety of the Fedora Project, contingent on the mostly RHer Fedora
Council (who has access to information the rest of us can’t ever get,
since we’re not employed by Red Hat) approving it.
What information do you want? We have put out a list of all the applications we have, we are trying to make sure that we make people put in a ticket for things versus pinging us personally so it can be measured, and we have tried to make our infrastructure open for people to see what is done in it. That said there is always more things which can be done.
Stephen J Smoogen.
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