----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter MacKinnon" <pmackinn@xxxxxxxxxx> > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" <devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 4:33:18 PM > Subject: Re: RFC: Proposal for a more agile "Fedora.next" (draft of my Flock talk) > > On 07/26/2013 05:23 AM, drago01 wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Marcela Mašláňová <mmaslano@xxxxxxxxxx> > > wrote: > >> On 07/25/2013 07:25 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > >>> On Mon, 22.07.13 11:22, Matthew Miller (mattdm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 04:40:14PM +0200, drago01 wrote: > >>>>>> Whenever I go to a tech meetup or talk to someone from a new startup > >>>>>> company, their developers are inevitably using a different (usually > >>>>>> proprietary) desktop OS, plus a non-Fedora distribution on their code. > >>>>>> We're being left behind and left out. It doesn't matter how > >>>>>> theoretically great we are if we end up with no users. > >>>>> I don't see how your proposal solves any of those issues. You are > >>>>> actually splitting Fedora into multiple > >>>>> distributions which makes it even worse (more fragmentation, not > >>>>> really something you can target etc etc). > >>>> > >>>> Right now, we have a unified system which we pretty much guarantee > >>>> cannot > >>>> be > >>>> targeted at all. It's moving too fast at every level. > >>> > >>> Honestly this is the only thing that holds together Fedora at all. The 6 > >>> month release cycle and the fact that the entire distro needs to be in > >>> shape then is the only thing that keeps Fedora from falling completely > >>> into pieces. > >>> > >>> It would certainly be a better idea to develop Fedora more like a single > >>> OS rather than just a set of motley components with different release > >>> cycles and insular "rings". For example, isolating GNOME development > >>> from the core OS is certainly the signal in the wrong direction. > >>> > >>> > >>> I am fine with splitting out the actual enduser apps out, but that's > >>> nothing that can happen before we actually have a sane concept of > >>> apps. But for the rest we should work on creating one strong unified > >>> platform rather than a conglomerate of puzzle pieces that won't fit > >>> together. You just weaken the name of Fedora that way, we won't stand > >>> for anything anymore but a set of awkwardly non-integrated unsynced > >>> components. > >>> > >>> Sorry, but I am not buying this proposal, it appears to go 180° in the > >>> wrong diretcion... > >>> > >>> Lennart > >>> > >> On the other hand some projects might benefit from stable Ring0, 1, which > >> wouldn't change unexpectedly. > > No one said that stuff should change "unexpectedly" (and that's not > > what currently happens either). > > Beg to differ. There are lots of asynchronous dep changes (typically > version upgrades) in the current monolithic ring of Fedora that can wreak > havoc in dependent projects. At least in the Java space. > > > Actually its the opposite you want to consider the "whole picture" > > when doing changes and not think > > of independent pieces stuck together. > > The "whole picture" is *really* big and often internally has competing > interests. > I can envision oversight and policy implementation in the Ring/SIG model > however. > > > That's why the "lets build some > > core platform and put stuff on top > > of it" is flawed. > > I'm sorry but I can't agree that software layering is somehow inherently > "flawed". It's not "flawed" by design, but it's flawed by implementations. At least in the Java stack (you mentioned) as is currently this is entirely impossible. The Java stack is "all or nothing" - e.g. let's assume that ant is part of the ring1 as critical build infrastructure, but it depends on apache-commons-*, which build via maven, which depends on many (just to list a few - jetty, tomcat, plexus, aether, sisu), plexus brings jdt.core , aether brings tycho, tycho depends on eclipse platform and few other plugins, eclipse itself has a number of dependencies and so on so on. In short all or nothing :). I would love to see things layered but unless someone throws in enormous resources to cut all the circular dependencies this can't happen. Alexander Kurtakov Red Hat Eclipse team > > -- > Peter MacKinnon > MRG Grid/Big Data > Red Hat Inc. > Raleigh, NC > > -- > devel mailing list > devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
