On Sat, 2013-02-02 at 01:25 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > Feeling happy in the Red Hat position they invented for you in QA. > Feeling a big man now? Challenged accepted big man you have in your rein > of error effectively killed 2 thriving process in the QA community. Do > you really want to head down this road with me? Go ahead big man make > my day! Well, no, not really. We're not having a fight, here. At least, I'm not trying to. I'm trying to discuss process. You appear to think this is a battle for domination, but that's not how it looks from where I'm sitting. I'm sorry if it came up that way, I'm not trying to slap you down or demean you, I think we've just fallen prey to a bit of process confusion here. So, can we back up a bit? I've just read back the whole way through the two threads, and it turns out to be a bit of a mess. I think the problem is different people have different perceptions of what's going on. So in the 01-16 FESCo meeting - right at the end, in open floor - there was a short conversation about cron job conversion: 18:56:15 <Viking-Ice> on an different subject does it make sense to migrate all those cron scripts to systemd timer units? 18:56:25 <mmaslano> what? 18:56:25 <Viking-Ice> all shipped cron scripts I mean 18:56:40 <mitr> Viking-Ice: what end-user benefit would all that work bring? 18:57:10 * nirik has no opinion on it without looking at it in more detail. 18:57:20 <mmaslano> Viking-Ice: as a maintainer, I don't plan to do it, because I don't see any user improvement 18:57:37 <mmaslano> is there any? 18:58:11 <nirik> lets discuss that proposal after it's had discussion on list or detailed proposal sent to us? 18:58:22 <Viking-Ice> mitr, fewer packages in install have not looked at it further it's just recent that systemd gained "calender" support 18:58:40 <Viking-Ice> for those timer units 18:59:31 <Viking-Ice> I'll compile a list of packages that ship cron jobs and look what benefits it might bring 18:59:42 <mmaslano> Viking-Ice: could you mention in your proposal what it brings to users? 18:59:44 <mmaslano> ok thanks This wasn't widely advertised at the time, it's not mentioned in the 01-16 meeting minutes (no #info or #action lines were given). So anyone who wasn't at the meeting probably never saw it. The discussion does not relate to the actual feature that was proposed - as we agree, that does not cover cron job migration. And so far as I can tell you never brought any kind of formal proposal to FESCo: there is nothing in the 01-23 or 01-30 logs on this topic, and you have not proposed a feature for it. There was then the thread "Start of systemd timers after install/update of a package". You mentioned that you had looked into the migration possibilities and come to a list of 38 cron jobs in service related packages. There was a bit of follow-up discussion between you and Marcela; other principals in the current discussion weren't involved in the thread at this point (Bill posted to it early, but never *after* you mentioned your list of 38 packages). Then we come to this thread, which was related to a specific feature: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SystemdCalendarTimers . The migration question was brought up early and quite vaguely by Marcela, not clearly in direct relation to the feature but more as a 'general concern'. You replied and clarified that the feature doesn't actually cover the cron job migration, and re-stated that you were working on a cron job migration proposal. Then we fast-forward a week or so, and Bill replied to Marcela and provided his own proposal for how to decide what cron jobs to migrate. Now at this point I can kinda see how to you it looked like Bill was 'butting in on' your work, as now I've gone and done the thread archaeology and dragged up three week old FESCo logs from the archives, I can see that this has been kind of an 'ongoing thing' for you. But it doesn't quite have that visibility for anyone else - the FESCo discussion wasn't in the minutes and there's no public draft proposal, and the references in the "Start of systemd timers after install/update of a package" thread are somewhat vague and it's not clear Bill even saw them. Bill was present for the open floor section of the 01-16 meeting (I just checked my personal logs, as the public ones don't show joins/parts), but he didn't say anything - he may not really have followed the conversation. So Bill may not actually have been fully aware this was something you were working on. This was where the thread started going seriously downhill - in response to three different people you stated more and more strongly that you were working on the cron job migration thing and Bill was 'butting in'. Again, I can see how it looked like that to you, but I think to the others it didn't - I'm guessing the others, like me, hadn't seen all the previous stuff. It looked more like Bill suggested a proposal and you were claiming more or less by fiat that this was your area and he should butt out, and that's what got people's backs up. So now I've dug through the background I can see there's two sides here and I'm sorry for not catching that you actually had been working on this and you had some kind of justification for feeling the way you did. But can you accept that it looked different to other people, and your response was kind of overheated? When you start telling people to 'stay out of this' and accusing people of 'butting into your work' it kinda escalates the whole thing. So, sorry again for not catching how this looked from your angle, can we agree that it was the same problem on both sides and just move on now? FWIW, it does look to me from the 01-16 logs like you and FESCo had agreed that you'd come up with a proposal for the cron job migration stuff, so it seems reasonable to ask Bill to work together with you on that, or if it's impossible for you two to work together, maybe you could both come up with proposals and FESCo could try to synthesize them. Still, so long as you hadn't actually filed some kind of formal proposal or feature with FESCo, it's hard for anyone to know this was an area you were 'officially working on'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
