-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 hi I've about had it with posts like this. On the one hand, you say "people are busy and don't have time to fiddle with computers." And on the other hand, you praise the values of foss. Which is it. Windows has issues of it's own that make it a real pain to work with. And no, it does not "just work" Hardware is usually sorted, that's true. As long as you use only OEM installs. Install from a retail dvd and that starts to get iffy. Audio codecs, not true either. Windows supports mp3 natively, as well as mp4, wma and dvd codecs. Other than that, you're left on your own to go find the codecs to play the formats, windows is of no help. Osx, no idea. Too expensive, and I don't like the apple atmosphere. If you're one of those people who just want their computer to just work, use windows, and stop bashing fedora for being what it is. Your post is the one reason I don't go out of my way to help new users if they start demanding. Once you fix one thing, then they'll expect you to fix something else because they're incapable of doing it for themselves. I don't need the stress I've got enough things to do, thanks Elad Alfassa wrote: > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Ankur Sinha > <sanjay.ankur@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> I've never understood this argument tbh. Instead of us educating >> people on *WHY* the codecs aren't provided by Fedora, I see >> people repeatedly speaking about how not having them in Fedora is >> a huge deal breaker. > > It's not the job of an OS to educate people. Operation systems > exists to allow and enable people to do what they want and need in > a safe, secure and efficient manner. > > People are, usually, busy. If they install Fedora on a work > computer, they won't want to waste half the workday figuring out > why things are not working, and fixing them. For some people, > software is a hobby, so they have the patience and time to mess > around with it in their free time, to tweak it, to figure out why > it's not working. > > Most people are not like that. Most people don't care that much > about software, and never will, and that's fine. They want an OS > that "just works" and let them use their computer the way they need > to use it, without too much fiddling around and fixing issues. > >> >> While one reason is patents as someone already mentioned, the >> other is also the philosophy of FOSS - I hope it isn't just about >> using a free of charge system.. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Workstation_PRD Fedora > Workstation aims to create the best-in-class operation system for > developers. That's what it is about. > > Developers probably already know what open source is - we are no > longer the underdog. Open Source solutions are used everywhere. If > you're a developer, chances are you already know what open source > is. If these developers we are speaking about were idealistic about > open source, they'd probably be using Linux already and therefore > not relevant for this discussion... after all, we are asking "why > people aren't switching from Mac or Windows" and not "Why aren't > people switching from Ubuntu". > > And the answer to why people are not switching away from Mac or > Windows is simple: Mac OS X and Windows both have one thing in > common. They work. They don't require too much fiddling (especially > in the case of OS X). WiFi works, music works, video works... and > even if Windows or Mac required you to fiddle a bit when you > started, you are already entrenched. Everything works. Installing, > learning, and fixing a new thing would eat away at your precious > time, in which you could be doing something actually productive, or > having fun. > >> >> I do understand that having multimedia support is important user >> wise, and I'm more than happy to spend time trying to educate >> people - I'm not in favour of any changes that encourage people >> to install software that is not FOSS. > > gstreamer1-plugins-bad-freeworld is LGPLv2+. This falls under the > definition of FOSS. Please don't confuse software patents and > closed-source software. They are two very different things. > >> >> So, let us help the third party repository become better? >> Wouldn't that be a good way to go to help our users? > > Yes, that would be very helpful and it is certainly a way to go. > However, previously when I offered my assistance I got no response > from anyone who could actually point me at where to get started > there... and as such this repository still does not have appdata > afaik. > > >> Again, it completely comes down to lack of awareness - people >> that have bitten by the broadcom issue (even though broadcom >> support in the kernel has become much much better recently) know >> better than to buy broadcom in the future. >> > So you give people a choice here: "either throw away your brand > new laptop and buy a different one, or don't use Fedora". That's > not a good thing to do. It's safe to assume our target users > already have computers, and that a very large percentage of them > have broadcom wifi chips. If you're a developer with a laptop > supplied to you by your company, you might not have a choice of the > type of laptop at all. > > Wireless chips are not usually listed in the specs. This means > knowing what you buy requires a lot of research and prior knowledge > of which chips are "good"... Sometimes the information is not > available at all. Sometimes there are multiple editions of the same > laptop with different wifi chips. Sometimes non-broadcom is not an > option (if you buy a Mac, for example). If someone tries Fedora, > and sees that wifi doesn't work, they won't blame their hardware > (they probably don't even know what "broadcom" is), after all, it > worked fine on Windows (or on OS X). They'll blame Fedora. > > Fedora Workstation's main goal is to create a well-integrated OS > for developers. If we keep pretending we can just ignore issues > because they are "hard" or "complicated" then we are not doing a > very good job. > > The thing is, we do have things we can do to make the situation > better, instead of saying "no, it's our philosophy" or "this is not > a real issue". We could enable our users to safely get codecs, for > example. Means of doing that have been discussed in this very list > in the past. So yes, purchasing a patent license for all Fedora > users is out of the question... but there are other ways. > > For example, including 3rd party repository definitions is still > an option - if I recall correctly the only reason it was veto'd is > philosophical, not legal. > > Or we could offer the users to purchase the Fluendo codec pack in > an integrated and secure way. This is possible, and yes, most > users probably won't pay, but at least it's something, and > something is better than nothing. > > We could also have an official-ish page with less vague > instructions on how to safely get 3rd party repo to work, with a > clear disclaimer that this is community generated content in such a > way that would make legal happy. > > As for wifi, we could implement a pre-install check screen on the > live CD, that will warn you before you install if your hardware has > known issues. If your only network adapter is not supported, you'd > want to know about it *before* you overwrite your main OS. This > kind of utility could even provide a shortlink (so you can write it > down) for instructions on how to use your other OS to get the right > drivers or firmware files and how to install them. > > And as a community, we could try and pressure Broadcom (and > similar) to make better (ie. opensource, in the mainline kernel) > drivers for our OS. That sounds much more productive then blaming > users for buying the wrong thing. > > These solutions are not perfect. They are also not very easy, but > they are steps we can take. And I'm sure that if you think outside > the box for a bit you can find more solutions. > > We have a real potential here, let's not make it go to waste. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVUR4aAAoJEGYgJ5/kqBTdm2oP/1FIC8NZ4CmeRMR4FBPjSzQ4 xWJgWTzhDJzh1kstQPb53E/0On43N+LBwPQBNsAMJaGoDLFT2Ivie14FLMEU6Hno BDws8NAjpcruVD02M6ZapQ5aL4RB0QmO4SRl2CUKOQanFZMU+znxumEJ63x9+96q Oig+c4/uq2enCX/kRq9p8uCn07s5ItIr/fEWt24JkhWHt7nNXqT3FlTAsYQY4mxB f5iN2IIMJIoW2gcdpojcN4/SdjXz5pR+1nDkxRBaftFN3SNr4x7BoCutGJ8HOfO0 BvvE631j3myDKHE9B1DrTFtcJp5hsVur42K+Q1y4x6p2TmcV5nIgwSpd+SIuISIC Fpbbp2KpiXFX75Yk7oUs2UPTsoF5axuYtMzZz8grHXqBokD9K4Xin8qDREQ67IGj ziDB1kZcPMb5qDKU4qfNhqZGbWnYEMiNbIwj27Q6lAzOLxOEE571ikHL75V4+FHf gMkLitH2DP9JHXmXFxEqQ6VwhNGStA/KGAsrF7Fe0z7ZAkAqW3cjdwlZT+3jxBkA idLuUEd7gc6QG28RX64ERJk75R5lpZ9joQeIwr3+kLIw+2nOPTaofB669rsiC4NM ZJEKqtwHZl07OyeUXnhocT7rCavp898gHum+i8lg5jv1vLEppyG0MTQbGeQ8aMXu 5O2a6JJbYCQCIHbhtpCw =5Q6O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- desktop mailing list desktop@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
