Hi Nicu, On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:10 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote: > On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote: > > > > We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example > > to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along > > with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request > > that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME > > packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop. > > As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog > comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community > members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to > Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion. So there's a few things to consider here.... for example, the GNOME marketing team is actually engaged in an effort to create a series of videos showing off different aspects of GNOME 3 for the launch (some details here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/Gnome3In30Seconds ... I saw one of the videos at the Boston Summit but I'm not sure where they are online, I'll look for a copy though - they are impressive!) If they use the default GNOME wallpaper, but we use a different wallpaper, there's a missed opportunity for shared materials there. E.g., we could use the videos (which are openly licensed of course!) as part of our website without having to modify them or re-shoot them. It is true that KDE 4.5 shipped with a wallpaper that is strikingly similar to the GNOME 3 wallpaper, but I've talked to a few KDE users and it seems that it was not ever set as the default wallpaper for a KDE release so it doesn't have the same brand attachment to KDE that the GNOME 3 team is looking to achieve. Another thing to think about is the larger struggle between upstreams' branding and downstream branding. GNOME 3 isn't trying to produce a desktop that shoves the GNOME foot in your face constantly and competes with the Fedora brand. The GNOME logo really doesn't appear anywhere. I think they are going for a more neutral look that won't override the distro branding leading up to the desktop, and won't confuse users over what they are using. This is in stark contrast to say the HTC Sense UI on my Android phone, which definitely had me confused for the first few weeks I had the phone. E.g., "is this a real Android phone? or is this some HTC knockoff? Whaaaaat?" You know it's not like we're being asked to put something like this in: http://julbgordo.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/nascar-vehicle.jpg If we as a team choose to consider Owen's request, there won't be brand confusion between Fedora and GNOME - the Fedora brand will be strong from the website / DVD sleeve through the install and bootup process (Fedora splash graphics for the installer & firstboot, syslinux & grub... Fedora logo for plymouth) and when it gets to the desktop part it'll be neutral... not GNOME. Although I'm think the default webpage in the browser will be a Fedora start page too, so Fedora branding doesn't quite end at the desktop. Finally I think another thing to consider this as an F15 request is that we will, as a result of GNOME 3 being released by default in Fedora first (freedom features friends -first-) get a lot of newcomers to Fedora, whether they're journalists or GNOME fans from other distros - so either way we decide we are going to get a big influx of folks who haven't tried Fedora before, and it's because of GNOME 3. It's a big opportunity for us as a distro.... it may be a decision point for a lot of users who have considering switching to us and would have a big reason to check us out. Since they are getting us, as Fedora, more attention, it seems quite reasonable to me to at least consider the GNOME 3 team's request. > > I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like > > the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and > > keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The > > issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the > > GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution. > > Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same > background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default? > > > * What about the rest of the artwork? > > > > I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have > > different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then > > anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with > > the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it > > after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot. > > Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME > background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other > spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The > same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical > stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website > identity? I asked Owen some very specific questions yesterday about this, here is what I learned about the proposal: - The GDM background will *not* be the same as the GNOME background. It's going to be this team's (Fedora design team) design. When the user logs in with their username & password is when the switch will happen. - We can ship the Fedora background by default (no additional package installation required... out-of-the-box is what we're talking here) and place it prominently in the background chooser capplet. - While using the Fedora background for the GNOME 2 style fallback mode is actually a favorable idea (helps distinguish between the two modes), the way it is currently implemented makes this quite difficult because the same controls are being used for both modes. So this might not be possible but in theory it is an idea the GNOME 3 folks would support were it technically possible. - We can absolutely design artwork for the rest of Fedora that is harmonious with the GNOME background. We can do this via color palette, meme (stripes, whatever)... it breaks the GNOME 3's visual identity goal to ship the same exact background with the other Fedora desktops but we certainly can work on a heavily-inspired-by version for our own wallpaper. (As we've started to do during the sketching session with the water trails idea.) I had a lot of the same questions Nicu, and I talked to Owen about it yesterday so I hope some of this helps understand where we'd be if we do as a team decide to consider the request. It is absolutely our team's choice though as dictated by the Fedora board some time ago, and I'm very happy to see that being respected here. I will be quite candid with you and say that my initial internal reaction was quite similar to Fab's :) but the more we ask questions and get more of the story behind why the request is being asked of us, the more I understand why it is important for them and is an opportunity for Fedora and for this team in particular in developing better relations with upstream (an important characteristic of Fedora in general) and consequently our peers in other FLOSS projects. Again, to reiterate - this is our team's call, it's our decision. Let's be fair and respectful and give it some serious thought. My first priority is to you folks, my friends, our team.... but there has been a rift between our team and the one making the request here and this is I think a good opportunity for us to have a better, friendlier relationship and really just make Fedora kick more ass through that relationship. It's supposed to be freedom, features, friends, first... not freedom, features, oh-no-not-you-again-grrr, first... ~m _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
