On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 02:40:38PM +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote: > On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: > > > > > Can we cool down the rhetoric just a bit? That would really help this > > discussion be more constructive, so thanks in advance Fab. > > That implies that there actually *is* a discussion. From what I've read so > far, this "special request" wasn't a request at all and didn't sound like > something that was really negotiable. I just read the post here by Owen and it specifically says "request." Anything else is reportage or inference. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that sketching had just > > begun for F15 wallpaper. Is this request undoing a really huge amount > > of work? For instance, I don't see any entries yet here: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork > > I think all who worked on this so far were under the impression that we were > working on the default wallpaper. Of course, this isn't undoing any work but > I think it's a huge disappointment for the people who were working on this. > I couldn't make the actual meeting but I was prepared to put a lot of effort > into a wallpaper proposal, I'm not sure the arrangement that we have now > warrants that. Again, we're considering a request, not responding to a directive. > > According to the schedule, the "Design wallpaper" task just started > > three days ago. So it seems to me this request comes at a pretty good > > time, seeing as how that task lasts about three weeks. We just don't > > want to take all three weeks to debate and decide, then, right? > > OK, let me put this bluntly: This "request", if it goes through, will take > away maybe 80% of what the team actually influences in a release for the F15 > cycle. At least that's my impression (keep in mind that I haven't been with > the team all that long). You are basically asking us to put aside all > previously established pratices on voting for the final default wallpaper > among several wallpaper candidates prepared by the team and third parties. > And who knows if this isn't going to be the way we'll do it from here on > out? As much as I like Fedora's upstream policy, applying that to artwork is > silly IMHO. Either that or having a Design Team at all is. I'm not asking, I'm giving my opinion on a request that was made by someone else. I think it sounds like a cool opportunity to provide support for an upstream community of free software developers. Perhaps our decision might be influenced as well by whether Fedora gets any recognition for featuring the GNOME 3 release. Are you saying that if the Design team doesn't provide the specific default wallpaper for every release, there's no point in having one? That seems like a really broad exaggeration to me given all the other things I've seen the team doing beyond just release artwork. I'm not saying wallpaper isn't important -- re-read my message and you'll see that I mean exactly the opposite. It's precisely because Owen understands the visibility of the wallpaper that he went to great length to explain the nature of his request. So it's unfair to say anyone's not sensitive to that, because that seems to me to be the entire reason the request was made. I'd hope we're not becoming a team or project that has no ability to constructively address requests or find ways to promote great free software. > > Personally, I really like the idea that Fedora is being asked to be > > the tip of the spear showing off the new GNOME 3. A lot of work has > > gone into it, and not just by people inside Red Hat, but by a wide > > community of free software contributors. > > Nobody is doubting that. But does that mean we have to ship the default > wallpaper? If we had known this earlier, maybe we could've been involved in > the creation of that default wallpaper then.... I have been saying for ages > that having a kickass Gnome 3 setup could be a really huge step in setting > Fedora apart visually (something that is badly needed IMO) and I can't > really see how shipping the default wallpaper in Fedora is helping Gnome > Shell. If Gnome Shell is really defined by their wallpaper, we have a lot > bigger problems than I though... Check out Owen's request again to see if it helps clarify this. He indicated this is a one-time branding opportunity to help GNOME 3 with marketing their release, and specifically set out reasons for the request. > > On top of that, I seem to recall that the Desktop Live image for F-15 > > was slated to be larger than CD-sized. If that's the case, with > > proper coordination between teams, why not look into having an entire > > set of supplemental wallpapers created by the Fedora Design team > > included in the Desktop Live image? I'm not sure we've ever included > > those by default before, but it would be a great way to let people > > further customize their Fedora desktop, out of the box and in a Fedora > > specific way if they want. > > > That sounds great, but it sure sounds to me like you're trying to appease > the Design Team for having its biggest responsibility taken away. As I said, > I have no clue when the idea to ship the default Gnome art came up or where > exactly it originated but I think the whole Design Team should have been > included in the discussion right then and there. I'm not trying to appease anyone, I'm simply saying why I personally feel this could be a worthwhile one-time concession. Agree or disagree, but it's not necessary to attach conspiracy theories. I found out at the same time you did (well, later really, since I came into the discussion late, not being at the meeting, for which I apologize!). And personally I think creating wallpaper is not the biggest responsibility for the Design team. It may be one of the most widely visible ones, but it's not the most important IMHO. I think the most important responsibility of the team is handling the many requests for design from the community that come up regularly, both connected to releases and for completely ad-hoc tasks. Those requests help Fedora contributors have amazing presence at shows, create cool displays, attract people to the project, and so forth. Wallpaper is part of that responsibility, traditionally, but I don't think it's the overwhelming majority. On a completely separate note, I really dig the fact that the default GNOME wallpaper has a theme that's very Fedora compatible -- blue shaded and generally taking into consideration design principles from some previous Fedora releases. If it were really incompatible with what we generally provide, I might have a different opinion, but it's quite nice and seems like the kind of thing we might produce for a release ourselves. I guess for me that really tips the scales and makes this seem like an opportunity to collaborate rather than have a turf war. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
