On 25/02/2022 18:48, John Harrison wrote:
On 2/25/2022 10:14, Tvrtko Ursulin wrote:
I'll try to simplify the discussion here:
On 24/02/2022 19:45, John Harrison wrote:
On 2/24/2022 03:41, Tvrtko Ursulin wrote:
On 23/02/2022 20:00, John Harrison wrote:
On 2/23/2022 05:58, Tvrtko Ursulin wrote:
On 23/02/2022 02:45, John Harrison wrote:
On 2/22/2022 03:19, Tvrtko Ursulin wrote:
On 18/02/2022 21:33, John.C.Harrison@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
From: John Harrison <John.C.Harrison@xxxxxxxxx>
Compute workloads are inherantly not pre-emptible for long
periods on
current hardware. As a workaround for this, the pre-emption
timeout
for compute capable engines was disabled. This is undesirable
with GuC
submission as it prevents per engine reset of hung contexts.
Hence the
next patch will re-enable the timeout but bumped up by an order of
magnititude.
(Some typos above.)
I'm spotting 'inherently' but not anything else.
Magnititude! O;)
Doh!
[snip]
Whereas, bumping all heartbeat periods to be greater than the
pre-emption timeout is wasteful and unnecessary. That leads to a
total heartbeat time of about a minute. Which is a very long time
to wait for a hang to be detected and recovered. Especially when
the official limit on a context responding to an 'are you dead'
query is only 7.5 seconds.
Not sure how did you get one minute?
7.5 * 2 (to be safe) = 15. 15 * 5 (number of heartbeat periods) =
75 => 1 minute 15 seconds
Even ignoring any safety factor and just going with 7.5 * 5 still
gets you to 37.5 seconds which is over a half a minute and likely
to race.
Ah because my starting point is there should be no preempt timeout =
heartbeat * 3, I just think that's too ugly.
Then complain at the hardware designers to give us mid-thread
pre-emption back. The heartbeat is only one source of pre-emption
events. For example, a user can be running multiple contexts in
parallel and expecting them to time slice on a single engine. Or
maybe a user is just running one compute task in the background but
is doing render work in the foreground. Etc.
There was a reason the original hack was to disable pre-emption
rather than increase the heartbeat. This is simply a slightly less
ugly version of the same hack. And unfortunately, the basic idea of
the hack is non-negotiable.
As per other comments, 'tP(RCS) = tH *3' or 'tP(RCS) = tP(default) *
12' or 'tP(RCS) = 7500' are the available options. Given that the
heartbeat is the ever present hard limit, it seems most plausible to
base the hack on that. Any of the others works, though. Although I
think a explicit hardcoded value is the most ugly. I guess the other
option is to add CONFIG_DRM_I915_PREEMPT_TIMEOUT_COMPUTE and default
that to 7500.
Take your pick. But 640ms is not allowed.
Regardless, crux of argument was to avoid GuC engine reset and
heartbeat reset racing with each other, and to do that by
considering the preempt timeout with the heartbeat interval. I was
thinking about this scenario in this series:
[Please use fixed width font and no line wrap to view.]
A)
tP = preempt timeout
tH = hearbeat interval
tP = 3 * tH
1) Background load = I915_PRIORITY_DISPLAY
<-- [tH] --> Pulse1 <-- [tH] --> Pulse2 <-- [tH] --> Pulse3 <----
[2 * tH] ----> FULL RESET
|
\-
preemption triggered, tP = 3 * tH ------\
\-> preempt timeout would hit here
Here we have collateral damage due full reset, since we can't tell
GuC to reset just one engine and we fudged tP just to "account"
for heartbeats.
You are missing the whole point of the patch series which is that
the last heartbeat period is '2 * tP' not '2 * tH'.
+ longer = READ_ONCE(engine->props.preempt_timeout_ms) * 2;
By making the last period double the pre-emption timeout, it is
guaranteed that the FULL RESET stage cannot be hit before the
hardware has attempted and timed-out on at least one pre-emption.
Oh well :) that probably means the overall scheme is too odd for me.
tp = 3tH and last pulse after 2tP I mean.
To be accurate, it is 'tP(RCS) = 3 * tH(default); tH(final) =
tP(current) * 2;'. Seems fairly straight forward to me. It's not a
recursive definition or anything like that. It gives us a total
heartbeat timeout that is close to the original version but still
allows at least one pre-emption event.
[snip]
<-- [tH] --> Pulse1 <-- [tH] --> Pulse2 <-- [tH] --> Pulse3 <----
[2 * tH] ----> full reset would be here
|
\- preemption triggered, tP = 3 * tH ----------------\
\-> Preempt timeout reset
Here is is kind of least worse, but question is why we fudged tP
when it gives us nothing good in this case.
The point of fudging tP(RCS) is to give compute workloads longer to
reach a pre-emptible point (given that EU walkers are basically not
pre-emptible). The reason for doing the fudge is not connected to
the heartbeat at all. The fact that it causes problems for the
heartbeat is an undesired side effect.
Note that the use of 'tP(RCS) = tH * 3' was just an arbitrary
calculation that gave us something that all interested parties were
vaguely happy with. It could just as easily be a fixed, hard coded
value of 7.5s but having it based on something configurable seemed
more sensible. The other option was 'tP(RCS) = tP * 12' but that
felt more arbitrary than basing it on the average heartbeat
timeout. As in, three heartbeat periods is about what a normal prio
task gets before it gets pre-empted by the heartbeat. So using that
for general purpose pre-emptions (e.g. time slicing between
multiple user apps) seems reasonable.
I think the fact you say tP fudge is not related to heartbeats and
then go to mention heartbeat even in the "formula" which uses no tH
is saying something (at least that's how I read the 7.5s option). :)
I said the tP fudge is not because of the heartbeat. It is obviously
related.
As per comment above, the fudge factor is based on the heartbeat
because the heartbeat is the ultimate limit. But the *reason* for the
fudge fact has nothing to do with the heartbeat. It is required even
if heartbeats are disabled.
B)
Instead, my idea to account for preempt timeout when calculating
when to schedule next hearbeat would look like this:
First of all tP can be left at a large value unrelated to tH. Lets
say tP = 640ms. tH stays 2.5s.
640ms is not 'large'. The requirement is either zero (disabled) or
region of 7.5s. The 640ms figure is the default for non-compute
engines. Anything that can run EUs needs to be 'huge'.
1) Background load = I915_PRIORITY_DISPLAY
<-- [tH + tP] --> Pulse1 <-- [tH + tP] --> Pulse2 <-- [tH + tP]
--> Pulse3 <-- [tH + tP] --> full reset would be here
Sure, this works but each period is now 2.5 + 7.5 = 10s. The full
five periods is therefore 50s, which is practically a minute.
No, in my proposal it is 3 * (2.5s + 640ms) =~ 9.3s.
Not good enough. After 2.5s, we send a pulse. After a further 640ms
we perform an engine reset. That means your compute workload had only
640ms after being told to pre-empt to reach a pre-emption point. That
won't work. It needs to be multiple seconds.
[snip]
Am I missing some requirement or you see another problem with this
idea?
On a related topic, if GuC engine resets stop working when
preempt timeout is set to zero - I think we need to somehow let
the user know if they try to tweak it via sysfs. Perhaps go as
far as -EINVAL in GuC mode, if i915.reset has not explicitly
disabled engine resets.
Define 'stops working'. The definition of the sysfs interface is
that a value of zero disables pre-emption. If you don't have
pre-emption and your hang detection mechanism relies on
pre-emption then you don't have a hang detection mechanism
either. If the user really wants to allow
By stops working I meant that it stops working. :)
With execlist one can disable preempt timeout and "stopped
heartbeat" can still reset the stuck engine and so avoid
collateral damage. With GuC it appears this is not possible. So I
was thinking this is something worthy a log notice.
their context to run forever and never be pre-empted then that
means they also don't want it to be reset arbitrarily. Which
means they would also be disabling the heartbeat timer as well.
Indeed, this is what we
I don't think so. Preempt timeout is disabled already on TGL/RCS
upstream but hearbeat is not and so hangcheck still works.
The pre-emption disable in upstream is not a valid solution for
compute customers. It is a worst-of-all-worlds hack for general
usage. As noted already, any actual compute specific customer is
advised to disable all forms of reset and do their hang detection
manually. A slightly less worse hack for customers that are not
actually running long compute workloads (i.e. the vast majority of
end users) is to just use a long pre-emption timeout.
If disabled preemption timeout is worst of all words and compute
needs to disable heartbeat as well then why did we put it in?
Perhaps it was not know at the time it would not be good enough. But
anyway, do I read you correct that current thinking is it would be
better to leave it at default 640ms?
No. We cannot have the RCS default to 640ms.
Note that there is a difference between 'general end user who might
run some compute' and 'compute focused customer'. The driver defaults
(disabled or 7500ms) are for the general user who gets the
out-of-the-box experience and expects to be able to run 'normal'
workloads without hitting problems. I.e. they expect hung tasks to
get reset in a timely manner and while they might run some AI or
other compute workloads, they are not a HPC datacenter. Whereas the
compute datacenter customer expects their workloads to run for
arbitrarily long times (minutes, hours, maybe even days) without
being arbitrarily killed. Those customers will be explicitly
configuring their datacenter server for that scenario and thus don't
care what the defaults are.
Okay maybe I misunderstood what you were saying earlier about worst of
all worlds and all. But tell me this, if preemption timeout on RCS is
not directly related to hearbeats, but to some pessimistic expected
user workloads, what is wrong with my scheme of calculating the next
heartbeat pulse as tH + tP?
We can leave tH as default 2.5s and tP you set for RCS to 12s if that
is what you say is required. Or whatever long value really.
Your only objection is that ends up with too long total time before
reset? Or something else as well?
An unnecessarily long total heartbeat timeout is the main objection.
(2.5 + 12) * 5 = 72.5 seconds. That is a massive change from the current
12.5s.
If we are happy with that huge increase then fine. But I'm pretty sure
you are going to get a lot more bug reports about hung systems not
recovering. 10-20s is just about long enough for someone to wait before
leaning on the power button of their machine. Over a minute is not. That
kind of delay is going to cause support issues.
Sorry I wrote 12s, while you actually said tP * 12, so 7.68s, chosen
just so it is longer than tH * 3?
And how do you keep coming up with factor of five? Isn't it four periods
before "heartbeat stopped"? (Prio normal, hearbeat, barrier and then reset.)
From the point of view of user experience I agree reasonable
responsiveness is needed before user "reaches for the power button".
In your proposal we are talking about 3 * 2.5s + 2 * 7.5s, so 22.5s.
Question of workloads.. what is the actual preempt timeout compute is
happy with? And I don't mean compute setups with disabled hangcheck,
which you say they want anyway, but if we target defaults for end users.
Do we have some numbers on what they are likely to run?
What if we gave them a default of 2.5s? That would be 4 * (2.5s + 2.5s)
= 20s worst case until reset, comparable to your proposal. Are there
realistic workloads which are non-preemptable for 2.5s? I am having hard
time imagining someone would run them on a general purpose desktop since
it would mean frozen and unusable UI anyway.
Advantage still being in my mind that there would be no fudging of
timeouts during driver load and heartbeat periods depending on priority.
To me it feels more plausible to account for preempt timeout in
heartbeat pulses that to calculate preempt timeout to be longer than
hearbeat pulses, just to avoid races between the two.
It's long but it is correct in a way. Because we can't expect hearbeat
to react quicker than the interval + preempt timeout (or timeslice for
equal priority) + some scheduling latency.
I conceptually disagree with the last hearbeat pulse being special. If
the user concept is "after N heartbeats you are out" and you want to
make it "after N-1 heartbeats plus 2 preemption periods you are out",
where preemption period actually depends on heartbeat period, then
that sounds really convoluted to me.
And we don't know which of the pulses will trigger preemption since
user priority we don't control. So low priority compute task gets
reset after 5s, normal priority gets to run for 12s. Effectively
making context priority a variable in hangcheck.
It already is. That is no different. The pre-emption is not triggered
until the pulse is of equal or higher priority than the busy task. That
is the case no matter whether you are running GuC or execlist, whether
you have the original driver or an updated one.
And it doesn't matter which pulse triggers the pre-emption. All that
matters is that once a pre-emption is attempted, if the busy context
fails to relinquish the hardware within the pre-emption timeout limit
then it will be forcibly evicted.
If so, if we went with my proposal, would everyone be happy? If yes,
isn't it a simpler scheme? No special casing when setting the
preempt timeout, no special casing of the last heartbeat pulse.
Works predictably regardless of the priority of the hypothetical
non-preemptible workload.
No, we have to have the increased pre-emption timeout. And that has
ripple effects of making very long heartbeats or risking races with
the heartbeat beating the per engine reset.
advise compute customers to do. It is then up to the user
themselves to spot a hang and to manually kill (Ctrl+C, kill ###,
etc.) their task. Killing the CPU task will automatically clear
up any GPU resources allocated to that task (excepting context
persistence, which is a) broken and b) something we also tell
compute customers to disable).
What is broken with context persistence? I noticed one patch
claiming to be fixing something in that area which looked suspect.
Has it been established no userspace relies on it?
One major issue is that it has hooks into the execlist scheduler
backend. I forget the exact details right now. The implementation
as a whole is incredibly complex and convoluted :(. But there's
stuff about what happens when you disable the heartbeat after
having closed a persistence context's handle (and thus made it
persisting). There's also things like it sends a super high
priority heartbeat pulse at the point of becoming persisting. That
plays havoc for platforms with dependent engines and/or compute
workloads. A context becomes persisting on RCS and results in your
unrealted CCS work being reset. It's a mess.
The comment from Daniel Vetter is that persistence should have no
connection to the heartbeat at all. All of that dynamic behaviour
and complexity should just be removed.
Dependent engines is definitely a topic on it's own, outside
hearbeats, persistence and all.
Except that it has implications for persistence which the current
driver does not take into account.
Well current driver does not take RCS+CCS dependency into account so
that should come first, or all in one package at least.
Not sure what you are arguing for here? Simplifying persistence as
described will fix all the problems in one easy go. There is no point in
adding yet more hideously complex code to make one corner case work when
the real fix is to rip it all out.
It sounded like you were arguing there was an issue with context
persistence and dependent engines so my reply was that if there are no
dependent engines in upstream there is no issue with persistence. Once
dependent engines are brought upstream then any reset caused by
persistence can be looked at and determined if there is any conceptual
difference between that and any random reset.
Otherwise there is definitely complexity in the execlists backend
but I am not sure if logic persistence and heartbeats are so very
connected. It does send a pulse when heartbeat interval is changed,
which if going to zero, it will kick of closed contexts if it can:
static struct intel_engine_cs *
__execlists_schedule_in(struct i915_request *rq)
{
struct intel_engine_cs * const engine = rq->engine;
struct intel_context * const ce = rq->context;
intel_context_get(ce);
if (unlikely(intel_context_is_closed(ce) &&
!intel_engine_has_heartbeat(engine)))
intel_context_set_banned(ce);
if (unlikely(intel_context_is_banned(ce) || bad_request(rq)))
reset_active(rq, engine);
Is this what you mean? The point of this is to make sure persistent
context does not hog the engine forever if hangcheck has been disabled.
Reminds me of my improvement to customer experience which never got
in
(https://patchwork.freedesktop.org/patch/451491/?series=93420&rev=2). Point
of that one was to avoid engine reset (or worse) after user presses
"Ctrl-C" if something takes just over 1ms to cleanly complete.
The plan is that the persistent contexts would still get the default
grace period (pre-emption timeout at least) to finish but Ctrl+C will
kill it within a timely manner if it does not finish.
Yes my patch does that. ;) Currently non-persistent is killed to
quickly triggering pointless and alarming engine resets. Users
reported this last year and I tried to fix it.
Except that your patch is adding yet more complexity to an already
complex feature. The desire is to simplify the driver and make it more
maintainable not complicated it further.
It is fixing an user reported issue and is not really adding complexity
apart from enabling us to distinguish the reason for revoking a request
(ban vs soft close). I think we should care to fix user reported issues
in a reasonable time frame. It's a patch from last summer or so..
Persistence itself can stay. There are valid UMD use cases. It is
just massively over complicated and doesn't work in all corner
cases when not using execlist submission or on newer platforms. The
simplification that is planned is to allow contexts to persist
until the associated DRM master handle is closed. At that point,
all contexts associated with that DRM handle are killed. That is
what AMD and others apparently implement.
Okay, that goes against one recent IGT patch which appeared to work
around something by moving the position of _context_ close.
No it does not. The context close is not the trigger. The trigger is
Well patch says:
"""
The spin all test relied on context persistence unecessarily by trying
to destroy contexts while keeping spinners active.
The current implementation of context persistence in i915 can cause
failures with GuC enabled, and persistence is not needed for this test.
Moving intel_ctx_destroy after igt_spin_end.
"""
Implying moving context close to after spin end fixes things for GuC,
not fd close.
That's because persistence is currently a big pile of poo and does not
work in all the corner cases. The correct solution is to leave the IGT
alone and just fix the implementation of persistence. However, the IGT
update to not use the broken feature is a trivial test change (two
lines?) whereas fixing the broken feature is a significant KMD re-work.
It needs to be done but no-one currently has the time to do it. But
trivially changing the test allows the test to work and test the
features it is meant to be testing (which is not persistence).
Clear as mud. If the statement is that persistence cannot simply be
removed, then for sure it cannot be said that anything can be fixed or
unblocked by allowing some test to pass with GuC, by making them avoid
using persistence (and not even explicitly with a context param). It
implies persistence does not work with the GuC, which is then in
contradiction with the statement that we cannot just remove persistence.
I truly have no idea what the argument is here.
Regards,
Tvrtko
