Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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Well, I am hesitant to mention anything other than screen readers on this list. But this whole thing started when someone attributed success in his home state to the NFB philosophy. But the NFB philosophy is meaningless.  It can be used to justify anything and it therefore means nothing. It can just as easily be used to blame blind people for their problems as it can be used to empower them. In the past 30 years that I've been associated with the NFB, it has done far more harm than good. We would all be better off without it.

The NFB should start acting more like a normal advocacy group and less like a cult. It would do a better job of representing blind people if it did.


On 8/17/22 11:22, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
cancelled my PAC plan.
I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
need any from me.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>;
<speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:

Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
video,
even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
time.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:

  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
improve
  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
  mistaken.



  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
   the
   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
   problems,
   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
   society
   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
in
   skills and high expectations.
   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
   choice.
   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
   is
   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
fact
   that
   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
other
   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
   And choice does not mean training center choices.
   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
   course
   in
   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
   choice
   in
   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
choices
   will
   reach the same end result.
   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
want
   to
   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
no
   questions asked.
   They would not have to fight to get it.
   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
the
   software that the counselor wants them to have.
   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
   well
   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.

   Glenn
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
   "Milan
   Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
and
   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
get
   them to buy window-eyes.
   73
   Butch
   WA0VJR
   Node 3148
   Wallace, ks.


   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
   exactly.
   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
   Jaws
   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
   expensive
   program instead of a largely free one.



   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

     Karen,
     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
     counselors
     will
     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
     don't know
     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
will
     need
   to
     learn one of the two.
     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
the
   employer
     will allow.
     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
Jaws
   scripters
     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
years
     in the
     business I can say is rubbish.
     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
may
     be
     chosen,
     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
counselor
     feels
   is
     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
non-vocational
     purchases,
     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
     best
     interest
     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
     like VR
     expenditures do.
     Glenn

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
     Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
     <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
     <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
   reminded,
   the
     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
their
   clients
     is quite poor.
     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
     Making,
     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
really
     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
     request.
     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
     scientific, we
   are
     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
     Linux,
     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
     give you
     an
     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
tool.
     Fs would likely say where do we sign?



     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
at
     work,
     and
     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
     client.
     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
would
   advocate
     that
     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
     specific
   job.
     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
than
     we did
     for
     work related situations.
     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
     indeed
     purchase a JFL product.
     Glenn
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
     Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
     <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
     <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
     blinux
     list
     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
     to say
     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
     they
     market
     to the American rehab community.
     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
     support the
     need
     for choices?
     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
     quality
   speech
     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
     everyone
     brings their needs to the table there.

     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
     there is
     money for  them there, from their main source of income.



     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
   know why
   FS
     would
     not be able to do the same.
     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
     game
     changer,
     and
     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
     seeing
     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
     Glenn
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
     Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal"
     <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
     <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
     longer, being
     bought
     by another company.
     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
their
     tools
     for
     Linux.
     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
     clay. You
   can
     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
changes
     and
     options
     for creativity.
     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
     characteristics,
     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
     foundation as
   it
     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
     Apple
     efforts
     at
     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
     adaptive
     tools
     for various  populations that were built into the system.
     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
theory
     at
     least,
     the
     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
freedom
     or the
     former
     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
     work.
     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
     Just my thoughts,



     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
     Linux.
     JFL
     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
     would bring
     many
     more
     users into Linux.
     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
robust
     than
     Orca.

     Glenn
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
     To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
<klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   writes:
   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
   qualifications,
   and
KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
if
KL>    he
KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
KL>    dangerous,
KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
KL>    accessibility
KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
factual.
KL>    he
   has
   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.

     Hi Karen,

     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
   qualifications.
     I
     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
     feedback and
   I
     believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
     technical
     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
     opportunity
   to
     find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
     better
     informed.

     As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
   experienced�,
   what
     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
     standard
     desktop
     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
     common
   blind
     user
     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
     process
     text
     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
     etc.?

     And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
   developer
   hired
     to
     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
     state of
   the
     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
     all the
     kinds
     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
     works at
     his
     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
     urgent ones
     and I
     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
to
     work
   on
     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
fit,
   as I
   do.

     Regards,
     Milan







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