Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>]

I'm on my third stint as an NFB member, and am quite intrigued. Who were 
the people involved?  Also, for the record, who's writing the message below?


I wasn't in NFB at the time of whatever happened.  I'd heard that it was 
kind of a deal between Freedom Scientific (or whatever it was then) and 
Microsoft, but I had no specifics.


Al


On 8/16/22 14:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a 
> rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing 
> strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the 
> NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
>
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good 
> as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little 
> motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be 
> enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I 
> felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open 
> source  screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe 
> I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
>
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> > <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> > sadly mistaken.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state 
> > > where the
> > > agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> > > Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its 
> > > problems,
> > > but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that 
> > > society
> > > has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> > > skills and high expectations.
> > > And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> > > choice.
> > > Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but 
> > > this is
> > > organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
> > > that
> > > it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> > > organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> > > And choice does not mean training center choices.
> > > Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational 
> > > course
> > > in
> > > college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of 
> > > choice
> > > in
> > > this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> > > will
> > > reach the same end result.
> > > In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I 
> > > want to
> > > use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> > > questions asked.
> > > They would not have to fight to get it.
> > > I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> > > software that the counselor wants them to have.
> > > When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch 
> > > well
> > > enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> > >
> > > Glenn
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
> > > "Milan
> > > Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> > > took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
> > > them to buy window-eyes.
> > > 73
> > > Butch
> > > WA0VJR
> > > Node 3148
> > > Wallace, ks.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > >
> > > > And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> > > > In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
> > > > exactly.
> > > > after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal 
> > > > Jaws
> > > > users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
> > > > expensive
> > > > program instead of a largely free one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >    Karen,
> > > > >    Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> > > > >    In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the 
> > > > > counselors
> > > > >    will
> > > > >    use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> > > > >    If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but 
> > > > > don't
> > > > > know
> > > > >    NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients 
> > > > > will need
> > > > > to
> > > > >    learn one of the two.
> > > > >    So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> > > > > employer
> > > > >    will allow.
> > > > >    Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> > > > > scripters
> > > > >    available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> > > > >    So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 
> > > > > years in
> > > > > the
> > > > >    business I can say is rubbish.
> > > > >    Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either 
> > > > > may be
> > > > >    chosen,
> > > > >    the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the 
> > > > > counselor feels
> > > > > is
> > > > >    best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> > > > >    When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> > > > >    purchases,
> > > > >    where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's 
> > > > > best
> > > > >    interest
> > > > >    to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back 
> > > > > like VR
> > > > >    expenditures do.
> > > > >    Glenn
> > > > >
> > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
> > > > >    Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" 
> > > > > <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > >    <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >    The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets 
> > > > > reminded,
> > > > > the
> > > > >    rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
> > > > > clients
> > > > >    is quite poor.
> > > > >    With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> > > > >    speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> > > > >    reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> > > > >    Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom 
> > > > > scientific, we
> > > > > are
> > > > >    creating an employment program where our clients will train in 
> > > > > Linux,
> > > > >    needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will 
> > > > > give
> > > > > you
> > > > >    an
> > > > >    exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> > > > >    Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >    True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows 
> > > > > > at work,
> > > > > >    and
> > > > > >    probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the 
> > > > > > client.
> > > > > >    If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> > > > > > advocate
> > > > > >    that
> > > > > >    the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a 
> > > > > > specific
> > > > > > job.
> > > > > >    In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than 
> > > > > > we did
> > > > > >    for
> > > > > >    work related situations.
> > > > > >    So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would 
> > > > > > indeed
> > > > > >    purchase a JFL product.
> > > > > >    Glenn
> > > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
> > > > > >    Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" 
> > > > > > <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > > >    <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> > > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the 
> > > > > > blinux
> > > > > >    list
> > > > > >    about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed 
> > > > > > to say
> > > > > >    command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> > > > > >    Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead 
> > > > > > they
> > > > > >    market
> > > > > >    to the American rehab community.
> > > > > >    how much market research has  the rehab community done to 
> > > > > > support the
> > > > > >    need
> > > > > >    for choices?
> > > > > >    How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> > > > > >    one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> > > > > > speech
> > > > > >    is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> > > > > > everyone
> > > > > >    brings their needs to the table there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove 
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > >    money for  them there, from their main source of income.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >    Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't 
> > > > > > > know why
> > > > > > > FS
> > > > > > >    would
> > > > > > >    not be able to do the same.
> > > > > > >    If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> > > > > > >    changer,
> > > > > > >    and
> > > > > > >    I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> > > > > > >    accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> > > > > > >    Glenn
> > > > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
> > > > > > >    Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" 
> > > > > > > <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > > > >    <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> > > > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any 
> > > > > > > longer, being
> > > > > > >    bought
> > > > > > >    by another company.
> > > > > > >    Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their 
> > > > > > > tools
> > > > > > >    for
> > > > > > >    Linux.
> > > > > > >    That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like 
> > > > > > > clay. You
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > >    mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> > > > > > >    personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes 
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > >    options
> > > > > > >    for creativity.
> > > > > > >    however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> > > > > > >    characteristics,
> > > > > > >    hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> > > > > > >    To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  
> > > > > > > foundation as
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > >    were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> > > > > > >    efforts
> > > > > > >    at
> > > > > > >    inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house 
> > > > > > > adaptive
> > > > > > >    tools
> > > > > > >    for various  populations that were built into the system.
> > > > > > >    Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> > > > > > >    least,
> > > > > > >    the
> > > > > > >    consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom 
> > > > > > > or the
> > > > > > >    former
> > > > > > >    gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> > > > > > >    Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> > > > > > >    Just my thoughts,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> > > > > > > >    JFL
> > > > > > > >    I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would 
> > > > > > > > bring
> > > > > > > >    many
> > > > > > > >    more
> > > > > > > >    users into Linux.
> > > > > > > >    FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> > > > > > > >    Orca.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    Glenn
> > > > > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > >    From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > >    To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > >    Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> > > > > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >    "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > writes:
> > > > > > > > KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> > > > > > > > KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is 
> > > > > > > > dangerous,
> > > > > > > > KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> > > > > > > > KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    Hi Karen,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> > > > > > > > qualifications.
> > > > > > > >    I
> > > > > > > >    also know first hand that he is open to constructive 
> > > > > > > > feedback and
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > >    believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible 
> > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > >    inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good 
> > > > > > > > opportunity
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >    find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> > > > > > > >    informed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
> > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > >    reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more 
> > > > > > > > standard
> > > > > > > >    desktop
> > > > > > > >    with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> > > > > > > > blind
> > > > > > > >    user
> > > > > > > >    who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and 
> > > > > > > > process
> > > > > > > >    text
> > > > > > > >    documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
> > > > > > > > hired
> > > > > > > >    to
> > > > > > > >    improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >    matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all 
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >    kinds
> > > > > > > >    of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas 
> > > > > > > > works at
> > > > > > > >    his
> > > > > > > >    job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent 
> > > > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > >    and I
> > > > > > > >    appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to 
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > >    other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> > > > > > > > do.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    Regards,
> > > > > > > >    Milan
>
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