Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.

The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source  screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.

This is absolutely not a rumor.


On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@xxxxxxxx>
To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
<butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
<Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
sadly mistaken.



On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
skills and high expectations.
And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
choice.
Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
that
it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
organization in interpersonal staff issues.
And choice does not mean training center choices.
Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
in
college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
in
this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
will
reach the same end result.
In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
questions asked.
They would not have to fight to get it.
I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
software that the counselor wants them to have.
When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
enough to know he wouldn't make that up.

Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan
Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
them to buy window-eyes.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

And where do these employers learn about jaws?
In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
exactly.
after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
program instead of a largely free one.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

   Karen,
   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
   will
   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
know
   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
to
   learn one of the two.
   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
employer
   will allow.
   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
scripters
   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
the
   business I can say is rubbish.
   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
   chosen,
   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
is
   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
   purchases,
   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
   interest
   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
   expenditures do.
   Glenn

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
   Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
   <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
the
   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
clients
   is quite poor.
   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
are
   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
you
   an
   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
   Fs would likely say where do we sign?



   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
   and
   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
advocate
   that
   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
job.
   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
   for
   work related situations.
   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
   purchase a JFL product.
   Glenn
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
   Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
   <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
   list
   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
   market
   to the American rehab community.
   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
   need
   for choices?
   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
speech
   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
everyone
   brings their needs to the table there.

   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
is
   money for  them there, from their main source of income.



   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
FS
   would
   not be able to do the same.
   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
   changer,
   and
   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
   Glenn
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
   Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
   <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
   bought
   by another company.
   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
   for
   Linux.
   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
can
   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
   options
   for creativity.
   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
   characteristics,
   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
it
   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
   efforts
   at
   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
   tools
   for various  populations that were built into the system.
   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
   least,
   the
   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
   former
   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
   Just my thoughts,



   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
   JFL
   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
   many
   more
   users into Linux.
   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
   Orca.

   Glenn
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
   To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
writes:
KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
and
KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
has
KL>  to be expert, it is his job.

   Hi Karen,

   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
qualifications.
   I
   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
I
   believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
to
   find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
   informed.

   As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
what
   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
   desktop
   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
blind
   user
   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
   text
   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?

   And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
hired
   to
   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
the
   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
   kinds
   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
   his
   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
   and I
   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
on
   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
do.

   Regards,
   Milan






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