Yeah, just look at the “insertion point at… null” issue when reading emails. It’s embarrassing, but I try my very best to look at it like this: When there are bugs, it means that things *are* being done. It’s when they persist, though, that shows that things, then, are *not* being done. Devin Prater r.d.t.prater@xxxxxxxxx Https://devinprater.github.io > On Jun 22, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Yes, Voice-Over does have some problems. > Just my thought, but it seems ‘issue’ is an over-used word for everything these days. > >> On Jun 22, 2020, at 5:47 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> Hi! >> VoiceOver on the mac is very customisable too in my opinion. >> Though it has some issues. >> /A >> >>> 21 juni 2020 kl. 22:33 skrev Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>: >>> >>> What I meant by that, and yes it was confusing reading it again, was that Emacspeak reads different font styles and such, like bold, italics, headings, in a different voice type than regular text, but only Narrator, and JAWS (with much customization) supports anything like that. Emacspeak also has the sound effects that it uses to great effect, with Narrator does too. In Narrator, you have to turn on “emphasize formatting” or something like that. Of course, there are other things that Emacspeak does, like its “scripts” for modes, like Rust-mode, which screen readers can’t really do. Why did I include that bit about Emacspeak in the first place? Ah, yeah, “self voicing” apps don’t make a platform accessible, though. I just wouldn’t want us to go through another “eyes-free” era of having an “eyes-free launcher,” “eyes-free dialer,” “eyes-free messaging,” stuff like that, just to get around Android’s accessibility issues. That “Voxmate” is bad enough. :) >>> Devin Prater >>> r.d.t.prater@xxxxxxxxx >>> >>> Https://devinprater.github.io >>> >>>> On Jun 21, 2020, at 3:08 PM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>> It's true accessibility is important, but it may not be the only thing important to someone. Somebody may be more than willing to put up with some accessibility short comings if what they get in return is worth it to them. You yourself even say you're willing to put up with what you call Linux's " poorly optimized accessibility stack" in order to gain the openness of Linux. You may not appreciate the trade offs you have in Android, but that's OK, you don't have to actually get it, you just have to decide for yourself what device you're going with and what is and isn't important to you. >>>> >>>> I can't help but think you're referring to IOS, but a few things I like about Android over IOS are that I can choose my own launcher, use 3rd party TTS engines, use a different screen reader, set up various default apps and so on. For years, I was able to put up with some accessibility short comings to take advantage of these features you have in Android but don't have in IOS. Recently I decided to go the other way and go with an iPhone 11 for my personal phone. I like some of the accessibility features I have in IOS but I miss some of that customization I had in Android. I know I'll be vilified by some for having used an Android phone at all and by others for going with an iPhone, but those are all my own personal decisions, and no one but me needs to get it. >>>> >>>> I've long been a proponent of Android supporting multifinger gestures, but I don't see this as the silver bullet to Android's accessibility that some seem to think it is. To me it's all about the gestures themselves. I have problems with IOS's gestures even with the multifinger gestures. The reason I like Android supporting multifinger gestures is because it gives the Talk Back developers and the users to come up with more intuitive and easy to use gesture sets, but the meer fact that Android supports multifinger gestures isn't going to mean that Android now has a better gesture set then VoiceOver, Narrator, NVDA or JAWS. >>>> >>>> One thing you said really confuses me though, and I'm not sure I can even ask an intelligent question about it. You said: >>>> >>>>> the core of accessibility. Sure, something like Emacspeak might sit on top of >>>>> Linux, but that doesn’t make Linux any more accessible, it just means that >>>>> Emacspeak has to do the job of a screen reader and all that. And that’s a shame. >>>>> None of the current offerings could possibly do the job that Emacspeak does, >>>>> except Narrator on Windows 10. >>>> >>>> Could you explain what you're saying here? I guess I'm particularly interested in how I can get Narrator in Windows 10 to do for me what Emacspeak does for me. I don't think of Emacspeak as doing everything a generic screen reader does, and I think of them as two pretty fairly separate classes of screen reading technologies. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher (AKA CJ) >>>> Chaltain at Gmail >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blinux-list-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx <blinux-list-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx> On >>>>> Behalf Of Linux for blind general discussion >>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 10:43 AM >>>>> To: blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Subject: Re: Prospects for an accessible and open version of Android? >>>>> >>>>> Okay, my two-cents. >>>>> >>>>> For me, accessibility is all about the operating system. Some people love >>>>> Android, and I don’t understand why. Its accessibility frameworks hold >>>>> everything back. Like, if the accessibility frameworks don’t support something, >>>>> then getting it supported will be much harder. The operating system is literally >>>>> the core of accessibility. Sure, something like Emacspeak might sit on top of >>>>> Linux, but that doesn’t make Linux any more accessible, it just means that >>>>> Emacspeak has to do the job of a screen reader and all that. And that’s a shame. >>>>> None of the current offerings could possibly do the job that Emacspeak does, >>>>> except Narrator on Windows 10. >>>>> >>>>> And I’d much rather have the actual openness of Linux, even with its poorly >>>>> optimized accessibility stack, than shriveled Android which, until, supposedly, >>>>> version 11, one could not use multiple finger gestures with Talkback. This is a big >>>>> deal, and I don’t know that people looking for a small solution completely >>>>> realize how far behind Android is. I don’t care if one can get things done on >>>>> Android, I care what it's like to get things done. >>>>> >>>>> You know, there have been some Google employees who I’ve talked to who >>>>> have found doing things like trying to connect one type of computer to another >>>>> through Google Remote as “fun”. Others have said that using the clunky actions >>>>> menu to delete email in the ill-fated Inbox app is “fun”. I think they actually >>>>> mean frustrating, and just aren’t allowed to say it about their own products, >>>>> because that’s what using Android was like for me, a quite technical person. I >>>>> mean, I’ve not taken a computer apart before and put one together; I’m too >>>>> afraid of breaking things, especially the Raspberry Pi. But I have used all major >>>>> operating systems, and gosh darn it I just want to get work done! I don’t have >>>>> time to fiddle around with screen reader workarounds to a poor accessibility >>>>> stack. I don’t have time to set variables just to turn on accessibility in a desktop >>>>> environment. But I would much prefer the open source nature of Linux, where >>>>> the screen reader is updated by feedback from users, than Google’s “well I >>>>> mean, I think this screen reader feature is good haha, y’all users stop >>>>> complaining, its not that bad.” Sort of I-Know-What’s-Best view of Google’s >>>>> Talkback developers. So, would you want to make, or use, a whole different >>>>> screen reader in your version of Android? Because Google makes Talkback. It’s >>>>> not open source, or at least, not the latest version. I believe the open source >>>>> version is actually quite a few versions out of date. So please, let’s stick with >>>>> Linux, where we have control. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Devin Prater >>>>> r.d.t.prater@xxxxxxxxx >>>>> >>>>> Https://devinprater.github.io >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 21, 2020, at 9:47 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux- >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2020, at 00:47, (Janina) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... I wonder if asking an Android phone to serve this function is >>>>>>> more an academic exercise than a practical one at this point? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I say this because I'm just now in the process of buying my next >>>>>>> (natively) Linux computer, and it's quite small. It comes pretty >>>>>>> close to the size of an Android phone. So, I suspect it might be the >>>>>>> easier path of practicality is the point. ... >>>>>> >>>>>> There are a number of small systems showing up on the market these days. >>>>>> I think this is great, but it doesn't really address the use case I >>>>>> have in mind (a pocket-sized computer with instant-on capability). >>>>>> The issues include integration, cost, size, weight, and instant-on capacity. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Intel-based systems tend to be pricier than the RasPi ones, but >>>>>> all of them cost at least a few hundred dollars. Adding an internal >>>>>> UPS is going to raise that by at least another hundred dollars. Also, >>>>>> someone will have to engineer and fabricate the add-on UPS board, battery, >>>>> etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> A retired Android cell phone, in contrast, will already have a >>>>>> built-in UPS and can be found for well under $100. For a poor (e.g., >>>>>> third-world) blind user, these may be critical issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Size and weight are also important. The mini PC systems fit nicely on >>>>>> a desktop, but none of them will fit into a normal pocket. Carrying >>>>>> one around would thus require something like a backpack. Some users >>>>>> would be OK with this, but I think most would not. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, this is a serious practical question, rather than an academic exercise. >>>>>> If we could find a way to put usable portable computers into the hands >>>>>> of blind users around the world, that would be a major contribution. >>>>>> Also, I think the effort might lead to useful enhancements in at least >>>>>> some of the mainstream Android distributions. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Rich Morin >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Blinux-list mailing list >>>>>> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blinux-list mailing list >>>>> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blinux-list mailing list >>>> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blinux-list mailing list >>> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list _______________________________________________ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list