I don't think service/food alone is going to save UA, AA or DL. Yes people want good service, but they want it cheaply too. If UA, AA, and DL can't find a way to do that, they are going to continue to have hard times. I suspect that most people don't care that they don't get the bad airline food anymore. I for one am not about to choose what airline I fly based on whether or not they serve food. I think BAHA, you are the exception to the rule here. Clay - SEA Fan of AA =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bahadir Acuner [mailto:bahadiracuner@xxxxxxxxx]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Industry Changes DL's was its own choice. UA couldn't do it because of the Ch. 11. CO and NW, especially NW is not too different than the LCCs in terms of the service. Try to get a meal in NW, or free headsets even free alcohol on COs flight, even on international flights. One thing UA and AA are doing is to distinguish themselves as the airline of choice for business people. Both AA and UA are adding service on board. The F class meals are fantastic on UA. Yeah yeah, I know, if you want to get a meal, go and buy it at McDs at the restaurant. BUT, there is this type of customer who spends least amount of time, who doesn't have the ability to pack before the flight. I commuted 6 months every week 24 each way with no prospect of having a bite except in the plane. On top of that when I put a 50-60 hours work week in 3-4 days , I want to be able to upgrade to a better seat , better service... So, I stick with UA, which takes care of me. If I want to go places, I have a choice of destinations that no LCC can provide me. Period! CO and NW have been bleeding money for last 2-3 quarters, UA and AA returned profits, even though they were small. (In UAs case, more on the operating profits, due to some restructuring charges) As I stated before in this forum, the oil prices are killing the airlines and I totally agree with your approach of Bush/oil connection. BAHA Fan of the days when oil was $19/barrel.. that would be 2-3 years ago -----Original Message----- From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Clay Wardlow Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:44 PM To: AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Industry Changes You say "Legacy carriers will prevail," yet only 2 out of the 5 stay around? Doesn't sound like that's a victory to me... but that's just semantics. Also, last time I checked neither CO nor NW were in Chapter 11. I admit though, I don't have an inside into those airlines as I do to a few others. Well one thing the LCCs have been able to do that UA, for example, hasn't is to buy fuel at a discounted rate. Fuel costs are the reason things are so bad for the industry (and who's our President? Hummm). I can't remember the actual term it's called but WN secured a price of something like 80% below retail price of fuel. To do that, you have to buy it cash-up-front. B6 was able to do it for close to that as well. AA was able to do it for a MUCH lower %, UA and DL were not able to do it. Clay - SEA -----Original Message----- From: Bahadir Acuner [mailto:bahadiracuner@xxxxxxxxx]=3D20 Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Industry Changes Playing the arm chair airline CEO Clay? :) <j/k> There is a lot of talk about the airlines "changing" these days. Well, whoever is saying that "LCC domestically and legacies international" is a fool. A lot of people fly IAD-FRA, JFK-LHR etc. but a lot more are flying DEN-ORD-LHR or SAN-LAX-FRA, etc. etc. Legacy carriers will prevail , granted some will not survive. I can see AA and UA surviving. CO/NW/DL is the collection of three ugly sisters trying to get married to a hunk :) The fact of the matter is, most of the international carriers have lower cost structures compared to their US counterparts. What makes the US carriers to win is the fact that I can fly UA/AA/CO/NW/DL on domestic routes AND on International routes. Yes, people flying once a year will go with the cheapest ticket and will still fly with legacy carrier's lower fare buckets, but as long as I can fly United out of SEA , even with connections, I am enjoying perks that I wouldn't be able to paying $$$$ for it.. There are some false assumptions about the industry of general public that is actually dead wrong. The fact that LCCs will survive and legacies will go away is one of them.. BAHA Fan of United Business. -----Original Message----- From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Clay Wardlow Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:51 AM To: AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Industry Changes While our servers are down, I've been day dreaming of airlines (of course). One article posted here and one a friend sent to me (I'll send later) kinda got me thinking. =3D3D20 I wonder if we are headed to a time when the legacy carriers (AA, UA, DL, etc) are going to only/mostly fill the international market and the LCCs will fill the domestic market. =3D3D20 Only time you'd fly AA is to LHR for example...=3D3D20 =3D3D20 Then you'd fly F9 between DFW-DEN, or WN between LAS and STL...=3D3D20 =3D3D20 Clay - SEA =3D3D20