This is the model that AC has been following. Air Canada has an infrastructure of relationships and assets that span the globe, and due to the nature of the nuances of the Star Alliance relationships, one that gives them the ability to quickly establish cost-effective new bases. They also have (generally speaking) a good reputation, extremely well respected standards for maintenance and reliability and a fleet that has a good number of planes with a range more than 4 hours. Their direction has been to utilize those assets to the max. Flights between Toronto and Sarnia, London and other smaller Ontario cities are down. Those Dash-8s have been redeployed to Vancouver <-> Portland/Seattle etc. WestJet/Jetsgo/Canjet don't have any Dash-8s, no infrastructure in these various cities and their customers can't get a through ticket to United flights... Air Canada; I gotta give 'em credit, has done a lot of smart things (much, admittedly on the backs of their employees and travel agents.) US airlines that follow the same model might make out okay. I too would give AA a chance but DL/NW/CO don't have the same assets in place. UA is one that could go either way... I think the US market is going to devolve very quickly. DL in Chapter 11 will be the rock that starts the avalanche. The industry can't sustain running at the highest load-factors in history and still loose tons of money. Matthew http://www.redmac.ca - Your Source for Macintosh Enhancements in Canada http://www.justaddanoccasion.com - Anytime gifts and momentos with a west-coast flair On 22-Sep-04, at 4:28 PM, Bahadir Acuner wrote: > DL's was its own choice. UA couldn't do it because of the Ch. 11. > CO and NW, especially NW is not too different than the LCCs in terms > of the > service. Try to get a meal in NW, or free headsets even free alcohol > on COs > flight, even on international flights. > > One thing UA and AA are doing is to distinguish themselves as the > airline of > choice for business people. Both AA and UA are adding service on > board. The > F class meals are fantastic on UA. Yeah yeah, I know, if you want to > get a > meal, go and buy it at McDs at the restaurant. BUT, there is this type > of > customer who spends least amount of time, who doesn't have the ability > to > pack before the flight. I commuted 6 months every week 24 each way > with no > prospect of having a bite except in the plane. On top of that when I > put a > 50-60 hours work week in 3-4 days , I want to be able to upgrade to a > better > seat , better service... So, I stick with UA, which takes care of me. > > If I want to go places, I have a choice of destinations that no LCC can > provide me. Period! > > CO and NW have been bleeding money for last 2-3 quarters, UA and AA > returned > profits, even though they were small. (In UAs case, more on the > operating > profits, due to some restructuring charges) > > As I stated before in this forum, the oil prices are killing the > airlines > and I totally agree with your approach of Bush/oil connection. > > BAHA > Fan of the days when oil was $19/barrel.. that would be 2-3 years ago > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > Clay > Wardlow > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:44 PM > To: AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Industry Changes > > You say "Legacy carriers will prevail," yet only 2 out of the 5 stay > around? Doesn't sound like that's a victory to me... but that's just > semantics. > > Also, last time I checked neither CO nor NW were in Chapter 11. I admit > though, I don't have an inside into those airlines as I do to a few > others. > > Well one thing the LCCs have been able to do that UA, for example, > hasn't is to buy fuel at a discounted rate. Fuel costs are the reason > things are so bad for the industry (and who's our President? Hummm). I > can't remember the actual term it's called but WN secured a price of > something like 80% below retail price of fuel. To do that, you have to > buy it cash-up-front. B6 was able to do it for close to that as well. > AA > was able to do it for a MUCH lower %, UA and DL were not able to do it. > > Clay - SEA > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bahadir Acuner [mailto:bahadiracuner@xxxxxxxxx]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: Industry Changes > > Playing the arm chair airline CEO Clay? :) <j/k> > There is a lot of talk about the airlines "changing" these days. Well, > whoever is saying that "LCC domestically and legacies international" is > a > fool. A lot of people fly IAD-FRA, JFK-LHR etc. but a lot more are > flying > DEN-ORD-LHR or SAN-LAX-FRA, etc. etc. > > Legacy carriers will prevail , granted some will not survive. I can see > AA > and UA surviving. CO/NW/DL is the collection of three ugly sisters > trying to > get married to a hunk :) > > The fact of the matter is, most of the international carriers have > lower > cost structures compared to their US counterparts. What makes the US > carriers to win is the fact that I can fly UA/AA/CO/NW/DL on domestic > routes > AND on International routes. > > Yes, people flying once a year will go with the cheapest ticket and > will > still fly with legacy carrier's lower fare buckets, but as long as I > can > fly > United out of SEA , even with connections, I am enjoying perks that I > wouldn't be able to paying $$$$ for it.. > > There are some false assumptions about the industry of general public > that > is actually dead wrong. The fact that LCCs will survive and legacies > will go > away is one of them.. > > BAHA > Fan of United Business. > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > Clay > Wardlow > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:51 AM > To: AIRLINE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Industry Changes > > While our servers are down, I've been day dreaming of airlines (of > course). One article posted here and one a friend sent to me (I'll send > later) kinda got me thinking. > > =3D20 > > I wonder if we are headed to a time when the legacy carriers (AA, UA, > DL, etc) are going to only/mostly fill the international market and the > LCCs will fill the domestic market. > > =3D20 > > Only time you'd fly AA is to LHR for example...=3D20 > > =3D20 > > Then you'd fly F9 between DFW-DEN, or WN between LAS and STL...=3D20 > > =3D20 > > Clay - SEA > > =3D20