Where are you numbers that people aren't willing to pay for First? Where's the evidence First is not a money-making proposition for airlines? The complaint is yield at the moment: how would more empty seats allow an airline to make more money? My analogy is right on target: if there are no premium upgrades, frequent flyer programs are worthless (what business traveler is going to give his miles to his company so that they don't have to pay for his ticket? Hum? Plus, they are only good for him so he can't fly his family on vacation somewhere with the miles). The one airline retaining premium service suddenly has a FF program that IS valuable (remember what Herb did during the early days of intense competition with Texas International? He was giving away fifths of whiskey as an incentive with every ticket purchase). Assume, again, Delta retains First. What good are my Mileage Plus miles now if I can't use them for upgrades? Sure, I can show them to the grandkids, but that isn't real exciting. I'd be over to Delta in a heartbeat and just start over rebuilding miles (and if I was Delta you know what else I'd do? Allow you to transfer into their program at one mileage level below where you are at a competing carrier). Bingo, Delta has a product everybody is on--and every airline has to match it. The cartel breaks. Travel agents are not in a position of bargaining power to throw business to one carrier because they retained commissions. They know that their days are numbered. Plus, there are only so many airlines that allow you to get from SUX to FAT. -----Original Message----- From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Greenwood Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:53 PM To: AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU Subject: Re: If I ran United... In any other industry, if you were offering a product that people weren't willing to pay for you would get rid of it. I don't hate first class. I just think the airlines would make a hell of a lot more money if they forced people to pay for their premium product instead of giving it away. I don't have a problem with an airline upgrading someone who flies 200,000 miles if the back is oversold and they need upgrades. Upgrading someone from a $299 fare to $2999 fare just for the sake of it is equally absurd. I think your analogy of all of the airlines agreeing to do something and then one of them not doing it is flawed. Someone who is a 2K with United is not all of a sudden going to start flying Delta just because Delta offers First Class. You also give the airlines far to much credit. I will use the recent elimination of commissions as an example. One of the majors could have decided to keep paying commission to grab all of the business from travel agents but that didn't happen did it? Frequent Flyer programs rule the world and dictate what airlines people fly. Mark Douglas Schnell wrote: > Your hatred for First Class (which I don't quite understand, but to > use today's vernacular, "whatever") assumes that every airline would > eliminate First Class. Sadly, you are missing the classic problem with > cartels: cheating. Let's say that all 10 of the majors got together > and said "Okay, from this point forward .. no more first class." > Assume that Delta (for the sake of argument) agrees to do so, but > doesn't. Who do you think is going to see a spike in business? Delta. > Then, every airline will be forced to put first class back in to > compete with the Delta product. > > As for people "paying" to be in first class .... you don't think a guy > who flies 200,000 miles a year deserves a bit of extra compensation > from the airline? I mean, he's paid quite a bit of money for those > trips. Who the hell cares if they bump him to first as a "thank you" > for throwing a ton of business their way? How is this different from a > hotel that throws a suite to somebody who spends 150 nights a year in > their facilities? > > To say that first class is what is causing the problems the airlines > are facing is, in a word, absurd. > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU] On Behalf Of > Dennis W Zeuch > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 6:24 PM > To: AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU > Subject: Re: If I ran United... > > In a message dated 5/3/02 5:54:46 PM !!!First Boot!!!, > stepan-ilych@multipro.com writes: > > << I've heard this several times, but what exactly has changed? > >> > When everyone sitting in F paid for it. > They were all dressed properly (no jeans, tennis shoes, tshirts etc ) > They were generally important people (not just freq flyers who THINK > they are important)They paid maybe 10 times the Y fare because they > could. F/As realized the very high amt paid for those seats and seemed > to treat the psgrs with a bit more sincere service and attitude(you > were really treated with respect and deference) The food service was > often fabulous, reallly great meals (keeping in mind the > location) far better prepared and with much costlier ingrediants than > todays odds and ends. Again since youre giving it away free--who would > pay for it? no one and whats the incentive to provide anything really > special? none. Its just a perk for FF and if all the majors dumped F > class ( like they all stopped paying travel agents commissions) what > ya gonna do? You would just have to put up with it.