Addison and Scott, This is among the reasons why Canadian DOT and AC/Milton (ostensibly to get out front of the debate, in reality because they savor juicy US market cabotage privileges) are discussing the matter -- limited choice in the wake of the Onex/Canadien/Air Canada episode. (Not that this was not entirely foreseeable, but that's another story.) Passengers can (and do) route as you suggest, as do US originators fly via Canadian hubs to US points. Connections/one-stops generally offer more attractive pricing than mature, well-fleeted non-stops, so the consumer benefits are there. To Scott's point, while there may not be published fares, negotiated fares often use such routings, precisely because they are by-products of existing 3rd/4th freedom services. No need to grant cabotage privileges. Let the Canadians and their carriers fend for themselves. And good luck to 'em, they need it. - Bob Addison Schonland wrote: > > Bob > Would not the benefits really accrue to the Canadians here? They have the > least amount of choice now. I bet more than a few people would fly YVR to > YYZ thru ORD for a better price while AC charges more for the non-stop. > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Airline List [mailto:AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU]On Behalf Of > RWM > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 5:12 AM > To: AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU > Subject: Re: Cabotage > > Antoin, > > Going back to the Chicago Convention, every signatory nation agrees it > starts > with certain rights, one of which is control over cabotage. Over the years > since, many nations have allowed layers of their trade "onion" to be peeled > away > -- and not just in relation to air services. > > The US has permitted substantial flesh, in terms of rights, to be traded > away in > this respect, to nations which do not offer comparable markets or the > potential > in the future for comparables. That's a call to be made by someone above my > pay > grade (though I would certainly hope to influence same). > > To the extent that new U.S. flag entrants like JetBlue continue to offer > nonstop > services in multiple frequencies at attractive prices, incumbents are > disciplined and the consumer benefits. I see no way that allowing cabotage > would substantially improve consumer welfare. For example, AC does not have > the > cost structure, while WestJet is focused elsewhere. In fact, were the > growth of > U.S. new entrants to be impeded by allowing cabotage, consumer welfare would > be > damaged, not enhanced > > To the extent that new entrants were no longer able to improve consumer > welfare, > the equation should be re-evaluated. That is not a present concern, and > likely > not in the foreseeable future, however. But it is one of the factors US DOT > has > historically viewed as important. > > To my mind, the airframe argument turns on dumping and subsidies than any > other > factor. Like steel, grain and many other commodities. However, air > services > are not presently in the WTO sphere of influence or control. (Not that WTO > wouldn't like to gain control of air...) > > - Bob Mann > > Antoin Daltun wrote: > > > > Might there not be be benefits for customers? If there are not customer > > benefits, then Canadian ventures can scarcely damage the US airlines. > > > > Why should the US airlines have protection agaisnt cabotage anyway? I can > > never understand why the US welcomes (insists on) free trade in aircraft > > manufacture, but not in their operation. > > > > Antoin Daltun > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "RWM" <RWM@RWMann.com> > > There's no fair value trade for U.S. carriers in a > > > North American common aviation area. > > > > > > - Bob Mann > > > -- > > > - R.W. Mann & Company, Inc. >> Airline Industry Analysis > > > Port Washington, NY 11050 >> tel 516-944-0900, fax -7280 > > > mailto:RWM@RWMann.com >> URL http://www.RWMann.com/ > > > > > > > > -- > - R.W. Mann & Company, Inc. >> Airline Industry Analysis > Port Washington, NY 11050 >> tel 516-944-0900, fax -7280 > mailto:RWM@RWMann.com >> URL http://www.RWMann.com/ -- R.W. Mann & Company, Inc. >> Airline Industry Analysis Port Washington, NY 11050 >> tel 516-944-0900, fax -7280 mailto:info@RWMann.com >> URL http://www.RWMann.com/