Baha: Im not saying anything, but what I stated in my previous post... Europe is the land of the little people... and their seat pitch reflects this... I'll take a NW DC10 with 100,000 cycles, friendly flight attendants and good meals vs. any KLM-DVT food posioning, nazi service plane...... Mind you.... the only ticket I could afford for my trip to Scotland for april 02 is KLM.... go figure....atleast its a MD11 both ways ... Scott SFO..... Practicing my yoga for those European seat pitches......