Hey, Jon and I had a great conversation (log below) about how confusing submitting a bug to Fedora can be. There are a ton of great points here about some of the useless/confusing fields that get presented. I'm not sure what options we have for improving this, whether it's making a friendly, stripped down page for bug submission (which won't help the situation with the bug pages themselves, unfortunately), or maybe having a simplified, step-by-step bug submission form like GNOME has (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi), but this area definitely needs our attention - bug reporting is one of the easiest ways to make the jump from Fedora users to Fedora contributors, which is very important :-) 01:21 < mccann> hey ricky 01:42 < ricky> mccann: Hey 01:42 < mccann> ricky: hey again :) 01:43 < mccann> ricky: is there anyone thinking about or working on making a separate bugzilla for fedora? 01:43 < ricky> No, thankfully :-) Running a bugzilla is *painful* 01:44 < ricky> Luckily, Red Hat has people dedicated to running their bugzilla, so we're very happy to be able to use that :-) 01:46 < mccann> well many of us are not so happy 01:46 < mccann> besides the reasons you gave it doesn't make much sense to share them 01:47 < ricky> Wellll, it is very nice to share bugs with RHEL as well 01:47 < ricky> For example, a lot of times, security/other bugs that get reported against Fedora/RHEL apply to upstream/downstream as well 01:48 < mccann> linking bugs sure 01:49 < mccann> but fedora and rhel have dramatically different audiences 01:49 < mccann> and should be designed as such 01:49 < mccann> currently red hat bugzilla is completely inappropriate for fedora 01:49 < ricky> In what places? 01:49 < mccann> in everything 01:49 < mccann> the design 01:50 < mccann> it is just targeting the wrong audience 01:50 * ricky hates the slowness for example, but that's my biggest complaint 01:52 -!- daMaestro [n=jon@fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-websites 01:55 < ricky> Are there specific pages that are particularly wrongly targetted? 01:56 < ricky> Like the individual bug pages, or the bug submission page? 01:56 < ricky> Oh, and my second biggest complaint is the poor integration with FAS, which we unfortunately have to live with :-( 01:57 < ricky> One thing that we can do with the new bug page is design a better interface to that 02:01 < mccann> the new bug workflow is horrific 02:01 < mccann> scares me 02:02 < mccann> bug yeah I think the FAS thing is a problem too 02:02 < mccann> we should be integrating with koji and stuff too right? 02:02 < ricky> Yeah. Of all the problems, the FAS one is the most hopeless one 02:02 < mccann> stuff that launchpad does maybe 02:02 < ricky> In what ways could it interface with koji? 02:02 < mccann> or the simplicity of kwestie 02:03 < ricky> And what are the main confusing parts in the new bug page? 02:03 < mccann> ricky: the whole new bug workflow is bad not just the page 02:03 * ricky is looking at it now :-) 02:03 < mccann> choosing Fedora vs. Red Hat is bad 02:03 * mccann pulls it up 02:03 < ricky> The first impression is that you have to click through two screens to get to the place that 90% of Fedora bugzilla users probably want to go 02:04 < mccann> first of all https://bugzilla.redhat.com/ is strange 02:04 < mccann> since I was looking for fedora and i got this 02:04 < mccann> makes me do a double take 02:04 < ricky> Yeah, the front page looks totally Red Hat/RHEL-centric 02:05 < mccann> if I manage to get past that... and many may not 02:05 < ricky> It might be good to have common links on the front page 02:05 < ricky> For example, one that goes directly to reporting bugs in RHEL, Fedora, and EPEL 02:05 < mccann> well for me I'd prefer to have a different account for my fedora bugs and my rhel bugs 02:05 < mccann> but i'll be specific about the new bug workflow for now 02:05 < mccann> i clicked new 02:06 < ricky> Darn, mizmo isn't around - she'd be the first person I'd want to be here for a discussion like this :-) 02:06 < mccann> what does "All: Show all products" mean? 02:06 < ricky> Wow, I had never clicked that link before 02:06 < mccann> its the first one :) 02:06 < ricky> I wasn't aware that jboss stuff was here as well 02:06 < mccann> and other? wtf 02:07 < mccann> i want fedora 02:07 < mccann> ok I click Fedora (duh) 02:07 < mccann> ok now what is all this stuff 02:07 < ricky> OK, so that's annoying/useless, but hopefully not too confusing yet 02:07 < mccann> i have another list 02:07 < ricky> Yeah - if anything, I'd emphasize Fedora/EPEL more 02:07 < mccann> annoying is worse than confusing 02:07 < ricky> I'd rename "Fedora EPEL" to "EPEL" to reduce confusion there 02:07 < mccann> point is that at every turn people will flee 02:08 < ricky> Fedora Hosted Projects needs to die 02:08 < ricky> I don't even know what Fedora Management Console is 02:08 < mccann> creating a bug MUST be one click from the home screen 02:08 < ricky> And documentation/localization should stay but be deemphasized 02:08 < ricky> Agreed - that's a good requirement to have 02:08 < ricky> Two clicks to downloading Fedora was one of our requirements when designing the get-fedora page 02:09 < mccann> and only require the minimum but allow me to add what I can 02:09 < mccann> anyway so at that screen I click "Fedora" (again) 02:09 < ricky> OK, so I think we have a lot of good comments so far - onto the next step - click Fedora again, wait a minute for the gian list to show up 02:09 < mccann> and now I wait a long time :) 02:09 < ricky> One thing that I think can be confusing to a lot of people is the terminology 02:10 < ricky> Stuff like "Product" and "Component" aren't that obvious to people 02:10 < ricky> s/aren't/isn't 02:10 < mccann> and now the screen of doom 02:10 * ricky would care about packages, not components 02:11 < mccann> big picture: most of this stuff is pointless or i have no idea what it is (even for me) and it gives me no idea what it important or required 02:11 < ricky> OK, let's go through the fields one by one 02:11 < mccann> if i just go down to the description and then submit it - i'll get an error 02:11 < mccann> the point is not the fields themselves necessarily 02:11 < ricky> The sheer number of them? 02:11 < mccann> the point is that I should just enter what I'm seeing and that should be enough 02:12 < ricky> I can see where you're coming from with that - but I think the line needs to be drawn at selecting a component, at least 02:13 < ricky> The OS field is particularly useless here :-) 02:13 < mccann> well what if I don't know the component? 02:13 < ricky> As is target milestone 02:13 < mccann> i design the OS and many times I don't know what is causing the specific problem 02:13 < ricky> Hm. 02:14 < mccann> i go to the emergency room and I don't diagnose myself 02:14 < mccann> i tell them my leg hurts 02:14 < mccann> doctor tells me that it isn't my leg it is shoes that are the problem 02:14 < ricky> Maybe there needs to be a catchall component if the users don't know. Not sure how such a thing is implemented in bugzilla or if the triaging team has the ability to take on a lot of that type of bug 02:15 < mccann> so let's assume for a moment that i want a top to bottom workflow 02:15 < mccann> let's go down in order 02:15 < mccann> product fedora - um yeah i guess 02:15 < mccann> component: dunno 02:15 < mccann> reporter: ? 02:16 < mccann> me of course 02:16 < mccann> and why is that over to the right 02:16 < mccann> version 02:16 < mccann> of what? 02:16 < mccann> of the component? 02:16 < ricky> Good, I didn't think of that ambiguity before 02:16 < mccann> the next 5 dropdowns? pointless 02:17 < ricky> Agreed 02:17 < mccann> initial state? wtf 02:17 < ricky> Most people don't care who it's assigned to or CCed to either 02:17 < mccann> and some weird flags boxes over to the right 02:17 < mccann> what is that 02:17 < ricky> And the flags are mostly of interest to triagers, maintainers and other fedora contributors 02:17 < mccann> for some admin i guess 02:18 < ricky> The time tracking is completely unused as far as I know 02:18 < mccann> i've never used them 02:18 < mccann> alias seems like it better added later 02:18 < mccann> if ever 02:18 < mccann> what is url for? 02:18 < mccann> i have no idea 02:18 < ricky> I think I'd prefer if all of the extra stuff were at the bottom of the page, maybe even below the submit button, or hidden behind some advanced options button 02:19 < mccann> what is whiteboard for? i have no idea 02:19 < ricky> So summary, description, and attachment are the only useful ones there at all 02:19 < mccann> Customer Facing ? 02:19 < ricky> Yeah 02:20 < mccann> and if i somehow skip summary it gives me a nasty error message 02:20 < mccann> but it doesn't tell me summary is required 02:20 < ricky> Do you think this kind of confusion also applies to the bug pages themselves (like https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1), or not so much? 02:20 < mccann> and those groups. i've never touched them 02:21 < mccann> not done here - one sec :) 02:21 < ricky> Heh, take your time, this is good stuff :-) 02:21 < mccann> and "Commit" ?! 02:21 < mccann> this isn't an insane asylum or is it? 02:21 < ricky> Yeah, that's is pretty bad 02:21 < ricky> **that 02:21 < mccann> and commit has the same "weight" / importance as "remember template" 02:22 < mccann> actually less 02:22 < mccann> since it is smaller and over to the left 02:22 < mccann> and the spacing on the page is just all wrong 02:22 < mccann> and commit is hidden down under the "heading" Add External Bug: 02:22 < ricky> Oh yeah. 02:23 < mccann> so again the entire workflow should be just (maybe) summary, and description and "Submit bug report" 02:23 < mccann> and that should all be one click from the home page 02:23 < mccann> and maybe add attachment if i have one 02:24 < mccann> or list component if i can tell 02:24 < mccann> and maybe even automatically look for similar bugs 02:24 < mccann> to prevent needless dups 02:25 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-websites 02:25 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) 02:26 < mccann> if we had a better main page it could even show quick summary of what was filed or fixed today 02:26 < mccann> lots of cool stuff 02:26 < ricky> Ugh, I got dropped from wireless, sorry 02:27 < ricky> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi is a decent thing to compare against if you have an account there 02:27 < ricky> Still a bunch of steps, but at least clearly labeled (and mostly only the important ones) 02:28 < mccann> well gnome has a number of nice things in theirs 02:28 < mccann> but i think they are working on moving over to a new version now 02:28 < mccann> so it is on hold 02:28 < ricky> Do you know if it's GNOME patches to it, or if it's functionality we could get as well? 02:28 < mccann> both I think 02:28 < ricky> Ah 02:29 < mccann> i'll try to check on the update tomorrow 02:29 < mccann> anyway for the bug status page... 02:29 < ricky> :-) 02:29 < mccann> say https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=514246 for example 02:29 < mccann> it is pretty bad too 02:29 < ricky> Yeah, it's like always looking at a half-filled form 02:30 < mccann> Conditional NAK? 02:30 < ricky> Heh, that I don't see :-) 02:30 < mccann> PM Score: ? 02:31 < mccann> oh this may be rhel things sneaking in for me 02:31 < ricky> Hehe 02:31 < mccann> but they shouldn't 02:31 < mccann> again the time reporting stuff 02:31 -!- onekopaka is now known as onekopaka_away 02:32 < mccann> anyway i'll ask around tomorrow about the gnome bugzilla move 02:32 < mccann> thanks for listening to my rants 02:32 < mccann> :) 02:32 < ricky> Mind if I post this entire conversation to fedora-websites-list? 02:32 < mccann> did I say anything too mean? 02:33 < ricky> Nah :-) Everythings, very true definitely 02:33 < mccann> ok sure then :) 02:33 < ricky> Cool, thanks - hopefully this will start up some brainstorming 02:33 < mccann> cool. again I'll check back with some info tomorrow hopefully
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