Kevin Kofler wrote:
Máirín Duffy wrote
(https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00166.html):
There is no such thing as a "GNOME LiveCD". The "Desktop Spin" or "Desktop
LiveCD" is GNOME.
That's a naming issue which, while I think it is important (i.e. that this
naming is stupid and biased), is not really relevant to this discussion.
No, it's not a naming issue, it was a deliberate decision. I was not
involved in that decision so please refrain from taking it out on me.
Thanks.
Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote
(https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00160.html):
1. We have to trust our usability experts, just as they trust us to
{code,package,document,administrate,etc.}.
[snip]
3. Some of our usability experts are in fact GNOME UI folks, so it is
no surprise if their philosophy matches GNOME.
Don't we have any less biased people we could trust? It's obvious that GNOME
UI folks have a vested interest in hiding all non-GNOME choices.
Gee, thanks. I'm biased because I think:
1) The desktop spin of Fedora is GNOME-based.
2) The default desktop of Fedora is GNOME.
3) The most popular download of Fedora is the x86 Desktop Spin (which,
from #1, happens to be GNOME-based)
4) There are far more maintainers of GNOME involved in Fedora than KDE.
5) A beginner choosing the Fedora desktop environment with more
maintainers and support seems likely to have a better experience than a
beginner that chooses the desktop with less maintainers and support.
6) Overwhelming new users with multiple permutations of Fedora to
download is probably a bad idea from a usability perspective.
7) The get Fedora page has traditionally been too complicated because it
is so cluttered and the websites team have received many complaints to
this effect.
I don't know, those seem to be pretty objective and logical statements
to me. But, you know, whatever. Apparently I'm not a responsible
designer. I suppose I should just give up now since you've written me
off. Are there any other "unbiased" designers who would like to step up
in my place? There's certainly a lot of other things I could be doing
with my time.
4. KDE has a chicken-egg problem when it comes to getting wider usage
in Fedora, one which was improved but not solved by the Core/Extras
merger and strength of the KDE SIG.
I believe KDE in Fedora has many more users than you seem to believe.
We chose the desktop spin, which happens to be GNOME, based on website
statistics indicating that it was the most popular download. Please
argue that with apache or whatever was collecting the statistics, not
me. Thanks.
I wonder if we have any reliable usage stats there. I've seen the Mugshot
stats, but unfortunately they suffer from heavy selection bias because
Mugshot is closely connected to GNOME. They also do not capture stats for the
average user, only for the small group of people who use Mugshot.
Shall I pull out my violin?
Perhaps we need a changing "focus box" to bring such attention to SIG work,
etc.
We have a rotating banner series on the front page of FPO. The KDE SIG
as of yet has not submitted a request for a banner to the art team nor
has any collateral for said banner to link for been developed AFAIK.
While I think this is a good idea, I also think KDE really doesn't belong to
such a "focus box" only, but should be presented in the same way GNOME is.
You will need to take this up with the Board. Maybe if I keep repeating
this, it will help. You've only been told to do so by myself and Mike
McGrath in two other emails on this list so maybe it bears repeating.
The simple method we've chosen is to make a choice for the page viewer,
at the same time making alternatives obviously available. Compared to
"all links you might want on one page" and variations there-of, this
simple method is superior and the one we are proceeding with right now.
As I said right when starting this thread (when I asked whether we want to
designate a "default" spin of Fedora at all) I consider "all links you might
want on one page" to be the correct solution.
What I'd keep from Juank's mockup is the added descriptions (though the one
for the so-called "Desktop Live" is still missing the word "GNOME" in his
mockup), and I'd simply point the big "download Fedora now" link on the front
page to get-fedora, not to a particular spin.
One of the goals of the website design, the top goal actually
overwhelmingly in a collective vote of the websites team, was to provide
a one click download to getting Fedora and we had collectively decided
that the x86 desktop spin was the one that should be liked there:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-May/msg00094.html
You are suggesting we should drop that goal because there are two
desktops and it's unfair to favor GNOME?
I'm sorry, but you will make no progress arguing this with me or the
websites team. You need to take this up with the Board. That you are
continuing to argue this with me on this list where you can make no
progress but will only cause people to get upset is not very mature or
responsible, is it?
Máirín Duffy wrote
(https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00161.html):
Problem is, I go and download Fedora and end up with say KDE and I love it.
I tell my friend to go and download it, and they end up with GNOME.
I don't see a problem there. In that hypothetical scenario, you both tried a
version of Fedora, or ideally tried both and picked the one you liked best,
but in any case ended up with a version you like. That's the niceness of
choice, different people have different tastes, and they can all be made
happy. Nobody here wants to take GNOME away from you, we just want KDE to get
the equal treatment it deserves.
Yes, there is a problem. The Fedora experience is two very separate
experiences. I can't support my friend because I'm not even using the
same desktop, and if I'm a beginner I may not even understand that. It
may be difficult for me to get help.
I realize that being involved with GNOME, you want GNOME to succeed, but
please try to understand that being involved with KDE, I want KDE to succeed
too. ;-) (And of course other KDE SIG members want that too, see e.g.
Sebastian Vahl's reply.)
I'm hardly involved with GNOME these days. GNOME is my desktop of
preference but, contrary to your belief, I am a responsible &
professional designer. I had nothing to do with the decision to make
GNOME the default desktop; this was decided long before I was ever a Red
Hat employee. I also had no involvement in producing the statistics that
indicated the Fedora desktop x86 spin as being the most downloaded spin.
Accusing me of irresponsibility in my design work because I happen to be
involved in the GNOME project is pretty immature, Kevin. I have done
nothing wrong to you but stated plain facts.
You're going to have a better experience if you use GNOME as a newbie
because it has an exponentially larger number of maintainers and folks able
to help with it.
We (KDE SIG) have been successfully recruiting more and more KDE maintainers
(mostly volunteers, but Red Hat hiring Lukáš Tinkl was also a great move)
since the Core/Extras Merge. We already went from 1 KDE maintainer before the
merge to 4 core package maintainers, 1 Live CD maintainer and a few
application maintainers, and that number is only going to grow.
Perhaps the KDE SIG is growing, but the number of people involved
seriously pales in comparison to the number of people involved in GNOME
in Fedora and at Red Hat.
This is just a cold, hard fact.
I think a call-out box to highlight various spins on the get Fedora page is
fine and I do believe that was even in some of the mockups. The KDE spin
could certainly be in that rotation.
The KDE spin deserves a permanent mention, it should not get rotated away.
Why?
I only want what is best for new Fedora users. GNOME is the default
desktop in Fedora. That is something I did not decide, that is something
I have no choice in. So please stop taking it out on me. Please be
respectful. I am taking that as a given. If KDE was the default desktop,
my opinion on the design of the page would be exactly the same. I don't
really care either way, but I want new users to have one obvious choice
so their experience is as streamlined as possible. More advanced users
that know enough to care will of course be provided access to other options.
Throwing too many options at the very new users you are trying to usher
into Fedora and make it as easy as possible to start using Fedora is a
terrible, terrible idea. If the websites team as designers make an
exception for KDE, then we'll have other spins asking for exceptions.
KDE can be part of a rotating banner and if it is really that important
to you, we can weigh it more heavily than the other banners. By no
means, however,do I think it's a good idea to place the GNOME and KDE
desktops on equal footing on the get Fedora page. The distinction is
meaningless to the new users we are trying so desperately to attract,
and the argument that they are equal is also moot because GNOME is the
default desktop and thus are NOT equal.
I think you owe me an apology. I'll be happy to accept your actually
going to the Board rather than engaging in a long, drawn-out flame war
as an apology. Please do so.
~m
--
Fedora-websites-list mailing list
Fedora-websites-list@xxxxxxxxxx
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-websites-list
