Ian Malone <ibmalone@xxxxxxxxx> writes: > On 21 March 2014 15:19, lee <lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> One thing Fedora shines with (so far) is reliability, and reliability is >> one of the requirements I have. I have been using Debian for almost >> twenty years until they messed up badly with their brokenarch. Doing >> that put Debian out of the question once and for all because they failed >> that requirement miserably beyond believe. >> >> Please do not make the same mistake with Fedora. Switching to another >> distribution is a painful process. >> > > I'm kind of interested to know what your use case is that makes > switching distros more painful than fixing a broken install. The only > guess I can make is multiple systems. That`s the wrong guess. One thing is the installation itself during which I need to keep my data save. That means I have to unplug all disks put the two I`m installing on. Then my internet connection is slow, and it`s a lot to download. Then I have to set up everything I have working now again. Backing up configuration files helps, yet every distribution has their own way of doing things, so I there is plenty to figure out. Then I need to get rid of stuff that gets installed which I don`t need or want to have. Over time, I have to install things I need again, which involves figuring out which packages might provide it. Depending on which distribution it is, I have to learn how to use a different package management, and I have to find out how something works when it`s different from how it was before, which I do not know to begin with and also need to figure out first. Configuration files are stored at different places with different distributions, some things are configured very differently, and some packages I need may not be available. When switching distributions, it takes at least half a year to get back to where I was before. To give you a silly example: When I was using Debian, I had eximstats running, coordinated with logrotate. In over a year I haven`t figured out yet how to do that with Fedora. It`s not really important, and it seemed not even to be available, and I had more important things to do. Only recently I happened to find that it`s suddenly installed, so how do you set it up? Another example: I need squid 2.7 because I need a feature that still hasn`t been ported to the current version. Squid 2.7 is not in Fedora, and it was difficult to get it to work because I had to learn how to write some startup file for systemd and to find a way to somehow trick unknown things Fedora has which prevented squid from being able to have a log file and even kept deleting directories I made. Squid 2.7 is in Debian, so you simply install it, adjust the configuration file and you`re done. And more examples: When I log in as another user, that other user has no sound. I`ve been asking on this list quite a while ago and didn`t get an answer. Any idea how to fix that? It never was a problem with Debian. Debian didn`t use pulseaudio, so the sound worked just fine. Until F19, pulseaudio used to randomly crash, which disabled all sound. It takes time to figure out things like that and that you have to restart pulseaudio to get the sound back. The package for fvwm in Debian was ancient, so I had a self-compiled version. That is no longer needed with Fedora: just another detail that needed to be looked into. Xterm, which worked fine with Debian, would blank out, so I couldn`t use it for quite a while: just another detail. Where is xcolorsel? I sometimes need that, and I still haven`t found a replacement or a way to get it with Fedora. Where is cinelerra? I wanted to learn how to use it, but I can`t get it with Fedora :( It`s hundreds of little details that need to be looked into, and many things you can`t just do as you used to. They are either done differently, or it`s something you set up so long ago that you forgot how you did it --- or something just doesn`t work anymore or is not available. So switching distributions is a major PITA. It`s sure fun to try out different things and learn new stuff --- if that is what you want to do. I`m doing it, and it`s fun, but I need my stuff working in the first place and not to get it in the way of what I want to do. Even after over a year, I don`t have everything back I had with Debian. Fedora has only maybe half the packages Debian has. Perhaps Feodra.next can catch up in that regard? >> I have always wondered how people manage to create packages, for Debian > [...] >> find out how to do that and that`s where it ends: It`s just too >> difficult. >> >> Instead, you put your software on github. >> > > If you see no value in packaging I'm surprised you aren't using a > roll-your-own distro instead. It sounds like that would be a much > better match for your requirements of control over everything on the > machine and a minimalist system. Not at all. Like I said in another post (or at least I think I did): I love packages. Without packages, you have chaos and the problem of having to piece together what you need and of having to somehow monitor everything you use for changes. And I don`t want a "minimalist system" either. That is very different from not wanting things I don`t need or don`t want. Think of cinelerra, for example. I suppose if you don`t want a "minimalistic system", you won`t want to have it. I want to have it and want to simply install a package that provides it. Think of fvwm: You may think it`s a "minimalistic" window manager. It is not, it`s actually the most powerful and most versatile WM I have ever seen, and it`s easy to configure to do exactly what you want. Do you know of any other WM that even comes close? I`ve used it about twenty years ago and tried many others in between and I came back to it simply because there is nothing better. It`s the opposite, if there`s such a thing, of "minimalistic". Think of emacs: You may also think it`s "minimalistic", and when you look closer, you may find it`s the opposite. I have used it about twenty years ago and many other editors in between, and I came back to it: There is nothing better. (I don`t get along with vi.) Now think gnome: You may think it`s not "minimalistic". Well, it is, it doesn`t let me do anything and totally gets into my way and is not configurable, yet it runs all kinds of stuff I don`t need or want. I tried it out every now and then over the years and never found any use for it. Think KDE: I actually used it for a short while, not even long ago, but it had so many bugs and quirks and so many things not working and wasn`t really configurable, either, so I ditched it when it was updated and things got even worse. To do all kinds of things I don`t need or want, it slowed my computer down noticeably. It`s "minimalistic". Think LaTeX: You may think it`s "minimalistic" compared to Libreoffice. Pfff. I used it about twenty years ago because there wasn`t anything better. There still isn`t --- and the LaTeX sources from back then can still be worked with and printed with no problem. I still have them. I tried Libreoffice not long ago and it was unable to do a simple thing they call mail-merge, it would just crash. It might have been possible to learn how to program it and to achieve what I wanted otherwise, but I stumbled over one bug after the other. Libreoffice is "minimalistic". I don`t even have it installed. Even if it worked, it would not be worthwhile to learn how to program it because it`ll be gone in twenty years or have changed so much that you`d have to start learning all over again. Don`t get me wrong. LaTeX isn`t a good solution for everything, there are WMs that have features that fvwm doesn`t and doing spreadsheets in emacas, though you can, is awkward. I also have nemo running because it is sometimes useful. Hm. I was about to say that nemo uses ridiculous amounts of memory and looked. Guess what: It`s not running anymore, it has crashed. Minimalistic ... Anyway, I`m not into having a "minimalistic" system. I like efficiency and stuff that works, is well thought out and does what I want without unnecessary fuss. That kind of software usually happens to be extremely powerful. I don`t like having stuff which I don`t need and wasting resources on it. I don`t know what would be better than packages. I wish there were more packages and am only saying it`s too difficult to make them. Perhaps there`s good reason for it, perhaps it can be made easier. Someone who knows how to make them might be able to tell. -- Fedora release 20 (Heisenbug) -- users mailing list users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
