On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 23:05 -0400, max wrote: > Da Rock wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 20:20 -0400, max wrote: > >> Da Rock wrote: > >>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:11 -0400, max bianco wrote: > >>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock <rock_on_the_web@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>>>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote: > >>>>> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote: > >>>>> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to > >>>>> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games > >>>>> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use > >>>>> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be > >>>>> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing > >>>>> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb, > >>>>> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the > >>>>> > > shit they put in the software. > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted > >>>>> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to > >>>>> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses > >>>>> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not > >>>>> > > due to the lack of technology... > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing > >>>>> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem > >>>>> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind > >>>>> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an > >>>>> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be > >>>>> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with > >>>>> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer, > >>>>> > often flying solo... > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult > >>>>> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show > >>>>> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make > >>>>> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way > >>>>> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things > >>>>> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as > >>>>> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital > >>>>> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near > >>>>> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better > >>>>> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like > >>>>> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap > >>>>> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading > >>>>> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time > >>>>> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting > >>>>> > up with it not working right. > >>>>> > >>>>> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here? > >>>>> > >>>>> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but > >>>>> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing > >>>>> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the > >>>>> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done > >>>>> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$ > >>>>> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the > >>>>> public to computing. What should have happened was that the training > >>>>> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and > >>>>> think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing. > >>>>> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such > >>>>> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the > >>>>> damn drug produced by M$. > >>>>> > >>>>> And there is addiction through and through. > >>>>> > >>>>> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life > >>>>> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at > >>>>> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half > >>>>> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and > >>>>> the consumer has to buy another one. > >>>>> > >>>>> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a > >>>>> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and > >>>>> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that > >>>>> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part, > >>>>> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on > >>>>> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I > >>>>> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about- > >>>>> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the > >>>>> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc). > >>>>> > >>>>> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly. > >>>>> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been > >>>>> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done, > >>>>> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM). > >>>>> > >>>>> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across > >>>>> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing > >>>>> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as > >>>>> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More > >>>>> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget > >>>>> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall. > >>>>> > >>>>> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside > >>>>> and get outdoors or whatever. > >>>>> > >>>>> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that > >>>>> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF > >>>>> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former > >>>>> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either- > >>>>> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to > >>>>> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an > >>>>> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>> It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't > >>>> know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and > >>>> pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is > >>>> free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could > >>>> save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still > >>>> come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it > >>>> matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Max > >>> I'm afraid not, been down that track numerous times with NGO's and other > >>> organisations. The excuse is "we're not going to retrain", "we want to > >>> stick with something we're familiar with", "our head office only uses M$ > >>> office and we need to be compatible with them", "our suppliers can only > >>> read M$ office documents". Tell them it is compatible as well and they > >>> start back peddling even faster. > >>> > >>> Doesn't that sound like addiction to you? "I don't have a problem, I can > >>> give up at any time"? > >>> > >>> What you considered would be wonderful, but it never grabs them. Been > >>> there, tried that... > >>> > >>> Such a shame. > >>> > >> It is a shame but it won't change from the top down. Good change starts > >> from the bottom up. Education is the key as always. Most people are > >> surprised to find out Open Office is free and they certainly can't > >> believe its just as functional but it is. Things are changing slowly but > >> surely, there is alot of inertia in the market to overcome, besides > >> which people are often not farsighted enough to see the long term > >> consequences of their choices but that too is a matter of education. I > >> bet if a CD full of free software was stuffed in every mailbox like > >> those annoying AOL cd's you'd find it would take hold rather quickly. > >> > >> Max > >> > > > > Tried that. When a habit becomes impossible to break despite all reason > > it becomes addiction. Thats whats happened - despite education, and TCO > > analysis, business, schools and home users refuse to give up M$. I have > > just seen an organisation here working with a government welfare agency > > offering computers stacked with M$ shit to people with practically no > > money. Why not use free stuff here? Because they won't change their > > mind- everybody uses it, its what evryone's used to, what they'll use in > > the workplace, etc. Never mind that the basic principles of use don't > > change across platform and its easy to learn from *nix to M$. > > > > If you were running the organization would you stack the computers with > microshit? This is the people at the top, they go with what everyone > else does because your proabably not going to get fired for buying m$ > unless you work for me that is ;) > > > This government refuses to use free software- and have actually rolled > > over to M$ from *nix- and also buys systems from overseas vendors, even > > though there are local offerings. Business is the same. > > > Actually certain parts of gov't , are using open-source quite a bit. > There have been a few articles about this, i'll see if I can dig them up. > There have been some governments- but not this one! Thats Australian mind... > > > If this is not happening somewhere else then let me know and I'll come > > and join you- I'm tired of banging my head against a brick wall! Mind > > you I'll never give up, but I will show them how its done. > > Its everywhere ,unfortunately, but I can see the cracks spreading so its > just a matter of time. I don't like banging my head against a brick wall > either but the brick's gonna give before I do!! Good man. I'll keep on the backs here too. And yes, the brick will give before me if its my last breath... -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
