> On Jan 5, 2021, at 5:26 AM, Will Deacon <will@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Sorry for the slow reply, I was socially distanced from my keyboard.
>
>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 04:36:11PM -0800, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> +static inline void membarrier_sync_core_before_usermode(void)
>>>> +{
>>>> + /*
>>>> + * XXX: I know basically nothing about powerpc cache management.
>>>> + * Is this correct?
>>>> + */
>>>> + isync();
>>>
>>> This is not about memory ordering or cache management, it's about
>>> pipeline management. Powerpc's return to user mode serializes the
>>> CPU (aka the hardware thread, _not_ the core; another wrongness of
>>> the name, but AFAIKS the HW thread is what is required for
>>> membarrier). So this is wrong, powerpc needs nothing here.
>>
>> Fair enough. I'm happy to defer to you on the powerpc details. In
>> any case, this just illustrates that we need feedback from a person
>> who knows more about ARM64 than I do.
>
> I think we're in a very similar boat to PowerPC, fwiw. Roughly speaking:
>
> 1. SYNC_CORE does _not_ perform any cache management; that is the
> responsibility of userspace, either by executing the relevant
> maintenance instructions (arm64) or a system call (arm32). Crucially,
> the hardware will ensure that this cache maintenance is broadcast
> to all other CPUs.
Is this guaranteed regardless of any aliases? That is, if I flush from one CPU at one VA and then execute the same physical address from another CPU at a different VA, does this still work?
>
> 2. Even with all the cache maintenance in the world, a CPU could have
> speculatively fetched stale instructions into its "pipeline" ahead of
> time, and these are _not_ flushed by the broadcast maintenance instructions
> in (1). SYNC_CORE provides a means for userspace to discard these stale
> instructions.
>
> 3. The context synchronization event on exception entry/exit is
> sufficient here. The Arm ARM isn't very good at describing what it
> does, because it's in denial about the existence of a pipeline, but
> it does have snippets such as:
>
> (s/PE/CPU/)
> | For all types of memory:
> | The PE might have fetched the instructions from memory at any time
> | since the last Context synchronization event on that PE.
>
> Interestingly, the architecture recently added a control bit to remove
> this synchronisation from exception return, so if we set that then we'd
> have a problem with SYNC_CORE and adding an ISB would be necessary (and
> we could probable then make kernel->kernel returns cheaper, but I
> suspect we're relying on this implicit synchronisation in other places
> too).
>
Is ISB just a context synchronization event or does it do more?
On x86, it’s very hard to tell that MFENCE does any more than LOCK, but it’s much slower. And we have LFENCE, which, as documented, doesn’t appear to have any semantics at all. (Or at least it didn’t before Spectre.)
> Are you seeing a problem in practice, or did this come up while trying to
> decipher the semantics of SYNC_CORE?
It came up while trying to understand the code and work through various bugs in it. The code was written using something approximating x86 terminology, but it was definitely wrong on x86 (at least if you believe the SDM, and I haven’t convinced any architects to say otherwise).
Thanks!
>
> Will
