* Mary-Anne Nayler <naylm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> : > Nested tables are the absolute worst thing you can do! I agree -- which, if you read my post, you'll see I didn't advocate nested tables -- just a single table for columnar layout of the page. Within each column, items are floated or positioned using CSS. > A screen reader is able to tab to a table and tab within a table but > once you begin to have tables within tables, UGH! I use text-based browsers regularly, and, while tables can be rendered fine in many of them, nested tables get very ugly, very fast -- especially if the terminal you use is limited to 80 characters. > To quote accessibility guru Joe Clark; "With nested tables, a screen > reader user ends up working from within a maze formed by one table > within another". All you coders out there know how hard it is to code > nested tables and how confusing it gets right? Imagine trying to > reverse engineer this jumbled mess with nothing but audio to go on! Absolutely. This is the argument I use when trying to convince others to use a standards-compliant design. But often the customer (or your boss) will ditch this kind of accessibility for some simple cross-platform cross-browser consistency (not realizing that the cosmetic tweaks used to do this mean that even though the site looks good on a Mac, a Windows machine, and some linux browsers, it reads like a complete foreign language in audio browsers or text-based browsers). In the end, on a practical level, I often am not *allowed* to make a tableless design due to the wishes of my boss or client. And, unfortunately, I have to pay the bills so my family and I have a place to live and food to eat, so I can't simply refuse a job based on principle. That's pretty much all I was getting at in my first post. > Matthew Weier O'Phinney wrote, On 10/05/05 01:59 AM: > > * Mikey <frak@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> : > > > I have just come back from the client visit and one of the issues > > > that arose was over the use of accessible markup, more > > > specifically the use of tables versus the use of layers. > > > > > > Now, my long held belief was that div/layers were added to the > > > spec so that designers could separate presentation markup from > > > content - that is, use positioned layers for laying out content, > > > use tables for tables of data as they were originally intended. > > > However, my client seemed adamant that it was the other way around > > > and that the use of tables was preferred owing to browser > > > compatibility issues. > > > > > > Now, I have just had a look around w3 and have found some > > > inferences that support my view but nothing that states clearly in > > > either direction. Does anyone on this list have a definitive > > > answer for this one? > > > > You have it correct, theoretically, regarding accessibility. Tables > > should be used for tabular data, divs for presentation and layout. > > > > However, many people confuse accessibility with consistency; they > > want a look-and-feel that works the same no matter what the browser. > > (Why they feel this is accessibility is anybody's guess, but I've > > seen it a number of times). In this latter arena, on a practical > > level, tables are typically your best bet. > > > > I've done a lot of tableless and table-based layouts, and the > > unfortunate fact of the matter is it's a lot easier to create a > > layout that is consistent cross-browser and cross-platform using > > tables. Until IE supports the CSS2 'display: table-*' elements > > (which is the easiest way of creating columns of the same height), > > this will continue to be the case. > > > > Now, this does not mean you should create a bunch of nested tables > > for the layout. I find that a simple skeleton made of a table with a > > few columns can create the basic page layout, and then I use as much > > CSS as I can within (unordered lists for navigation menus, floats to > > position image/caption pairs, etc.). This combines some of the best > > of both worlds, and creates a fairly accessible page at the same > > time. > > > > As in all things, it's a matter of balance. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney | WEBSITES: Webmaster and IT Specialist | http://www.garden.org National Gardening Association | http://www.kidsgardening.com 802-863-5251 x156 | http://nationalgardenmonth.org mailto:matthew@xxxxxxxxxx | http://vermontbotanical.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
