> having said that any HTML in production envs should degrade nicely for > older browsers. it doesn't have to look the same but it should be > accessible. It won't be if you use CSS. >> I can't count the number of CSS sites I've skipped because their links >> don't work (in my browser) due to CSS. Buh-bye. > > exactly what browser do you use? and how does CSS break links? (let me > guess you disable background images?) besides you can turn off > stylesheets completely if you want. Until the hard drive crashed a few months ago, I was using a Mac PPC 9100/100 with OS 8.6, the most stable OS for that hardware. I was using IE 4.01 (?) the most stable browser for that OS -- Though even that meant at least one crash a day :-( But nobody was buying me a new computer, so there it stayed. Randomly selected links would simply NOT WORK in HTML that was perfectly valid, if that HTML used CSS extensively. If I really wanted the content, I'd view the source and copy/paste the link. But if I was just surfing? I'd just go on to a different site. > CSS is a good thing. semantic mark and decoupling of style is a good > ting too. Sure, up to a point. But since I generally use PHP to de-couple my business logic from my output, enough to make it easy to alter the look-and-feel any time I want, I don't see the need to use CSS to do the same thing, and then not be degrading nicely on ancient browsers. I've also seen a TON of man-hours wasted separating interface logic from interface, which seems kind of silly to me... I mean, if your interface elements change, your interface logic is going to HAVE to change, if you're going to have any decent scrubbing/validation at all, or any kind of nice layout that isn't all generic looking. Not that I'm a good enough designer to actually achieve that :-) I guess I've always seen the "separation" more along the lines of: Interface Elements (HTML) and Input/Output to Interface Elements ---------------------- layer ----------------------------------- Business Logic ---------------------- layer ----------------------------------- Underlying Libraries of common code ---------------------- layer ----------------------------------- . . . ---------------------- layer ----------------------------------- Operating System I know I'm a heretic to leave the I/O to Interface with the actual interface, but I've never yet seen a case where separating them in the real world caused anything but wastage. YMMV. > its a bit weird if you consider that you seem to be willing to view an > all image page with loads of nested tables for positioning and tons of > font tags. but the same page written in a 10th of the HTML with a nifty > stylesheet which references a number of bg images is told to bugger off. I don't know about the all image page, as they tend to be awfully slow sometimes, but I've never had a problem with tables -- writing them or having them work, and since my font tags all come from a single PHP function, it's not like a big hairy deal to do the exact same thing you'd do with CSS -- I change the font in one place for the whole site, and I'm done. And the CSS positioning in older browsers invariably ends up being completely whack. You get some image floating right on top of, and obscuring, the text content I want to read, and I'm not a happy surfer. So I achieve the same goals as CSS, only it actually degrades nicely on those older browsers. [shrug] Yes, CSS sites look much nicer, and have cleaner-looking text, and that image placement with text wrapping around it is really pretty... But I'm simply not (yet) willing to abandon that .01% == hundreds of thousands of users who can't view CSS sites. Maybe in a year or so, and already for sites where I have prior knowledge of the userbase/browser not being *that* old. -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
