Allow me to add one more supplement to what I just wrote, as you/some
might say something like "but allowing `ct state related,established`
to work as expected is intuitive and neat".
Consider this:
# nft --debug=netlink add rule meh tcp_flags 'ct state == new,established'
ip
[ ct load state => reg 1 ]
[ cmp eq reg 1 0x0000000a ]
# nft list ruleset
table ip meh {
chain tcp_flags {
ct state established | new
}
}
If `ct state new,established` is interpreted to be the same as `ct
state == new,established`, at least we *will know* that we should use
`ct state { new, established }` instead. But when it is not, we can
only *suppose* it to be *practically* the same as it. (I'm quite sure
many people think like, "nft is just not completed/smart enough yet to
be able to omit the redundant curly braces"...)
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 at 18:41, Tom Yan <tom.ty89@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I was quite overwhelmed by the whole thing, so I might not have made
> my point clear.
>
> While I find e.g. `tcp flags fin,ack,rst` being not the same as `tcp
> flags { fin, ack, rst }` confusing, in this case it is still
> "reasonable", as we can say that in the former it is a
> "comma-separated list" (hence no space), while in the latter it is a
> set (hence the spaces).
>
> The real issue here is that a comma-separated list itself can have
> totally different meanings. For example,
>
> 1. If (just) `fin,rst,ack`, it means "any of the bits set".
> 2. If `== fin,rst,ack`, it means (fin | rst | ack)
> 3. If `fin,rst,ack / fin,rst,ack`, it means (fin | rst | ack). *(For
> both the value and the mask)*
> 4. If `== fin,rst,ack / fin,rst,ack`, it means (fin | rst | ack).
> *(For both the value and the mask)*
>
> So how could anyone have thought in the first case `fin,rst,ack` does
> not have the same meaning as it does in the other cases? That's what I
> would call "unreasonable". Also, if in any case e.g. (just) `syn` is
> not considered a (single-value) "comma-separated list", it's
> "unreasonable" as well.
>
> Or in other words, I don't find a behavior/shortcut like, "if a mask
> is not specified explicitly, a mask that is equal to the value is
> implied, yet not when we compare the value (e.g. ==)", sensible /
> sensical. (Would anyone?)
>
> And you know what, comparing this with the `ct state` is unfair. The
> fact that you did so sort of explains why we end up in this...mess.
> (Not trying to say it's your fault but rather, how the issue could
> have happened.)
>
> In the case of `ct state`, while we use the different bits for the
> states, the states themselves are mutually exclusive (AFAIK, e.g. a
> packet can't be new and established at the same time). People assume
> e.g. `related,established` to be *practically* equivalent to `{
> related, established }` not because they would think like, "generally
> a comma-separated list should mean any of states", but either because
> they know in advance a packet can only be of either, or, they assume
> such similar syntax should mean the same thing. (The truth is, `ct
> state related,established` is NOT *logically* the same as `ct state {
> related, established }`; the former will be true for a packet if its
> state can be / is related | established.)
>
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 at 15:03, Pablo Neira Ayuso <pablo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 09:48:21AM +0800, Tom Yan wrote:
> > > I'm not sure it's just me or you that are missing something here.
> > >
> > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 05:05, Pablo Neira Ayuso <pablo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 02:36:18AM +0800, Tom Yan wrote:
> > > > > Hmm, that means `tcp flags & (fin | syn | rst | ack) syn` is now
> > > > > equivalent to 'tcp flags & (fin | syn | rst | ack) == syn'.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, those two are equivalent.
> > > >
> > > > > Does that mean `tcp flags syn` (was supposed to be and) is now
> > > > > equivalent to `tcp flags == syn`
> > > >
> > > > tcp flag syn
> > > >
> > > > is a shortcut to match on the syn bit regarless other bit values, it's
> > > > a property of the bitmask datatypes.
> > >
> > > Don't you think the syntax will be inconsistent then? As a user, it
> > > looks pretty irrational to me: with a mask, just `syn` checks the
> > > exact value of the flags (combined); without a mask, it checks and
> > > checks only whether the specific bit is on.
> > >
> > > At least to me I would then expect `tcp flags syn` should be
> > > equivalent / is a shortcut to `tcp flags & (fin | syn | rst | psh |
> > > ack | urg | ecn | cwr) syn` hence `tcp flags & (fin | syn | rst | psh
> > > | ack | urg | ecn | cwr) == syn` hence `tcp flags == syn`.
> >
> > As I said, think of a different use-case:
> >
> > ct state new,established
> >
> > people are _not_ expecting to match on both flags to be set on (that
> > will actually never happen).
> >
> > Should ct state and tcp flags use the same syntax (comma-separated
> > values) but intepret things in a different way? I don't think so.
> >
> > You can use:
> >
> > nft describe ct state
> >
> > to check for the real datatype behind this selector: it's a bitmask.
> > For this datatype the implicit operation is not ==.
> >
> > > > tcp flags == syn
> > > >
> > > > is an exact match, it checks that the syn bit is set on.
> > > >
> > > > > instead of `tcp flags & syn == syn` / `tcp flags & syn != 0`?
> > > >
> > > > these two above are equivalent, I just sent a patch to fix the
> > > > tcp flags & syn == syn case.
> > > >
> > > > > Suppose `tcp flags & syn != 0` should then be translated to `tcp flags
> > > > > syn / syn` instead, please note that while nft translates `tcp flags &
> > > > > syn == syn` to `tcp flags syn / syn`, it does not accept the
> > > > > translation as input (when the mask is not a comma-separated list):
> > > > >
> > > > > # nft --debug=netlink add rule meh tcp_flags 'tcp flags syn / syn'
> > > > > Error: syntax error, unexpected newline, expecting comma
> > > > > add rule meh tcp_flags tcp flags syn / syn
> > > > > ^
> > > >
> > > > The most simple way to express this is: tcp flags == syn.
> > >
> > > That does not sound right to me at all. Doesn't `syn / syn` means
> > > "with the mask (the second/"denominator" `syn`) applied on the flags,
> > > we get the value (the first/"nominator" `syn`), which means `tcp flags
> > > & syn == syn` instead of `tcp flags == syn` (which in turn means all
> > > bits but syn are cleared).
> >
> > tcp flags syn / syn makes no sense, it's actually: tcp flags syn.
> >
> > The goal is to provide a compact syntax for most common operations, so
> > users do not need to be mingling with explicit binary expressions
> > (which is considered to be a "more advanced" operation).
