Thanks for the quick feedback Dave! My comments are in-line below. > On Aug 31, 2017, at 9:31 PM, Dave Chinner <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 06:00:21PM -0700, Richard Wareing wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> It turns out, XFS real-time volumes are actually a very >> useful/cool feature, I am wondering if there is support in the >> community to make this feature a bit more user friendly, easier to >> operate and interact with. To kick things off I bring patches >> table :). >> >> For those who aren't familiar with real-time XFS volumes, they are >> basically a method of storing the data blocks of some files on a >> separate device. In our specific application, are using real-time >> devices to store large files (>256KB) on HDDS, while all metadata >> & journal updates goto an SSD of suitable endurance & capacity. > > Well that's interesting. How widely deployed is this? We don't do a > whole lot of upstream testing on the rt device, so I'm curious to > know about what problems you've had to fix to get it to wrok > reliably.... So far we have a modest deployment of 13 machines, we are going to step this up to 30 pretty soon. As for problems, actually only 1 really. I originally started my experiments on Kernel 4.0.9 and ran into a kernel panic (I can't recall the exact bug) but after consulting the mailing list there was a patch in a later kernel version (4.6) which resolved the problem. Since then I've moved my work to 4.11. Our use-case is pretty straight forward, we open -> fallocate -> write and never again write to the files. From there is just reads and unlinks. Multi-threading IO is kept to a minimum (typically a single thread but perhaps 3-4 under high load), which probably avoids tempting fate on hard to track down race bugs. > >> We >> also see use-cases for this for distributed storage systems such >> as GlusterFS which are heavy in metadata operations (80%+ of >> IOPs). By using real-time devices to tier your XFS filesystem >> storage, you can dramatically reduce HDD IOPs (50% in our case) >> and dramatically improve metadata and small file latency (HDD->SSD >> like reductions). > > IMO, this isn't really what I'd call "tiered" storage - it's just a > data/metadata separation. Same as putting your log on an external > device to separate the journal IO from user IO isn't tiering.... :) The tiering comes into play with the rtfallocmin, because we always fallocate to "declare" our intention to write data XFS can automatically direct the data to the correct tier of storage (SSD for small files <= 256k & HDD for larger ones); in our distributed storage system this has the ultimatel effect of making the IO path files <= ~2MB SSD backed. Storage systems such as GlusterFS can leverage this as well (and where I plan to focus my attention once I'm done with my present use-case). > > FWIW, using an external log for fsync heavy workloads reduces data > device IOPS by roughly 50%, and that seems to match what you are > saying occurs in your workloads by moving data IO to a separate > device from the log. So now I'm wondering - is the reduction in > IOPS on your HDDs reflecting the impact of separating journal > commits from data writes? If not, where is the 50% of the IOPS that > aren't data and aren't journal going in your workloads? > >> Here are the features in the proposed patch set: >> >> 1. rtdefault - Defaulting block allocations to the real-time >> device via a mount flag rtdefault, vs using an inheritance flag or >> ioctl's. This options gives users tier'ing of their metadata out >> of the box with ease, > > As you've stated, we already have per-inode flags for this, but from > what you've said I'm not sure you realise that we don't need a mount > option for "out of the box" data-on-rtdev support. i.e. mkfs > already provides "out of the box" data-on-rtdev support: > > # mkfs.xfs -r rtdev=/dev/rt -d rtinherit=1 /dev/data > >> and in a manner more users are familiar with >> (mount flags), vs having to set inheritance bits or use ioctls >> (many distributed storage developers are resistant to including FS >> specific code into their stacks). > > Even with a rtdefault mount option, admins would still have to use > 'chattr -R -r' to turn off use of the rt device by default because > removing the mount option doesn't get rid of the on-disk inode flags > that control this behaviour. > > Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what this mount option > makes simpler or easier for users.... You are correct, I wasn't aware of the "rtinherit" mkfs time option :). However, it functions much the same as setting the inheritance bit on the directory manually, which is subtly different (and less intuitive as I hope to convince you). Inheritance bits are problematic for a couple reasons, first it's not super obvious (by common mechanisms such as xfs_info or /proc/mounts) to the admin this is in place. Imagine you are taking over an existing setup, it might take you many moons to discover the action by which files are defaulting to the real-time device. Second, you bring up a really good point that the rtdefault flag would still require users to strip the inheritance bits from the directories, but this actually points out the second problem with the inheritance bits: you have them all over your FS, and stripping them would require a FS walk (as a user). I think the change here I can make is to simply not set the directory inheritance bits on the directories since rtdefault takes over this function, this way when you remove the mount flag, the behavior is intuitive: files no longer default to the RT device. This way users get the added benefit of not having to walk the entire FS to strip the inheritance bits from the directories, and a more intuitive behavior. > >> 2. rtstatfs - Returning real-time block device free space instead >> of the non-realtime device via the "rtstatfs" flag. This creates >> an experience/semantics which is a bit more familiar to users if >> they use real-time in a tiering configuration. "df" reports the >> space on your HDDs, and the metadata space can be returned by a >> tool like xfs_info (I have patches for this too if there is >> interest) or xfs_io. I think this might be a bit more intuitive >> for the masses than the reverse (having to goto xfs_io for the HDD >> space, and df for the SSD metadata). > > Yep, useful idea. We already have a mechanism for reporting > different information to statfs depending on what is passed to it. > We use that to report directory tree quota information instead of > filesystem wide information. See the project id inode flag hooks at > the end of xfs_fs_statfs(). > > Similar could be done here - if statfs is pointed at a RT > file/directory, report rt device usage. If it's pointed at a the > root directory, report data device information. > I'll re-work the patch to fix this. >> 3. rtfallocmin - This option can be combined with either rtdefault >> or standalone. When combined with rtdefault, it uses fallocate as >> "signal" to *exempt* storage on the real-time device, >> automatically promoting small fallocations to the SSD, while >> directing larger ones (or fallocation-less creations) to the HDD. > > Hmmmm. Abusing fallocate to control allocation policy is kinda > nasty. I'd much prefer we work towards a usable allocation policy > framework rather than encode one-off hacks like this into the > filesystem behaviour. > I'm completely open to suggestions here, though it's been amazingly useful to have fallocate as the signal here as there's a pile of user land tools which use fallocate prior to writing data (. You can use these without any modification to do all sorts of operational tasks (e.g. file promotion to non-RT device, restoration of backups with/without sending small files to SSD, shell scripts which use "fallocate" utility etc). This really puts the control in the hands in the administrator, who can then use their imagination to come up with all sorts of utilities & scripts which make their life easier. Contrast this with having to patch xfs_fsr or another xfs tool which would be daunting for most admins. >> This option also works really well with tools like "rsync" which >> support fallocate (--preallocate flag) so users can easily >> promote/demote files to/from the SSD. > > That's a neat hack, but it's not a viable adminisitration policy > interface :/ > >> Ideally, I'd like to help build-out more tiering features into XFS >> if there is interest in the community, but figured I'd start with >> these patches first. Other ideas/improvements: automatic eviction >> from SSD once file grows beyond rtfallocmin, > > You could probably already do that right now with fanotify + > userspace-based atomic data mover (i.e. xfs_fsr). > > Keep in mind any time you say "move data around when ..." I'll > probably reply "you can use xfs_fsr for that". "fsr" = "file system > reorganiser" and it's sole purpose in life is to transparently move > data around the filesystem.... Agreed, but not really tenable to add piles of use-cases to xfs_fsr vs. leveraging the existing utilities out there. I really want to unlock the potential for admins to dream up or leverage existing utilities for their operational needs. > >> automatic fall-back >> to real-time device if non-RT device (SSD) is out of blocks, > > If you run the data device out of blocks, you can't allocate blocks > for the new metadata that has to be allocated to track the data held > in the RT device. i.e. running the data device out of space is > a filesystem wide ENOSPC condition even if there's still space > in the rt device for the data. > Wrt metadata, my plan here was to reserve (or does inode reservation handle this?) some percentage of non-RT blocks for metadata. This way data would over-flow reliably. I'm still tweaking this patch so nothing to show yet. >> add >> support for the more sophisticated AG based block allocator to RT >> (bitmapped version works well for us, but multi-threaded use-cases >> might not do as well). > > That's a great big can of worms - not sure we want to open it. The > simplicity of the rt allocator is one of it's major benefits to > workloads that require deterministic allocation behaviour... Agreed, I took a quick look at what it might take and came to a similar conclusion, but I can dream :). > > Cheers, > > Dave. > -- > Dave Chinner > david@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-xfs" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
