Matthew Dharm schrieb: > On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 09:07:20PM +0100, Frank Schaefer wrote: > >> Matthew Dharm schrieb: >> >>> I am thinking about the users. Do you really think someone who has >>> difficulty installing a new udev rule (probably a line or two of text >>> copied from a google search) or installing a new version of usb_modeswitch >>> (probably one or two commands to the distro package manager) will have an >>> easier time doing a custom kernel-compile and update? >>> >> I think users should not need to do ANY of these things ! That's called >> usability. >> > > So, new hardware should "magically" work? When you can write software to > support hardware that doesn't exist yet, let me know. > I can make nothing of that. It really doesn't make sense to discuss about mode-switches for devices for which we not even have a driver. >> Which users do you think know how to create udev-rules and how to >> compile a kernel ? >> Of course you and me and likely all others on this mailing-list and >> maybe you think Linux should be for them, only. >> >> I think we should do as much as possible to improve Linux-usability for >> "normal" and even "less experienced" users. >> > > Okay, let's talk about "less experienced" users. Suppose you are one of > these users. You get a new device, and you want to use it. You do some > web searching, and discover either: > > (a) you need to download and recompile your kernel > (b) you need to cut-and-paste some text from a web page into a file > > Which do you think is easier? > It's easier to let the driver/kernel do the mode-switch automatically if it makes sense ! That's perfect Plug'N Play and (a) and (b) are dispensable. Apart from that, I think that "just cut-and-paste some text from a web page into a file" is an illusion. Starts with the right key-words you need for the search and continues with the quality of the documentation. It's not that easy to create universal and especially complete manuals (we all love documentation-work right !? ;) ). For example: what's udev ? Of course, WE know, but ... > And, the situation above pre-supposes that the requisite changes (kernel or > userspace) haven't already been picked up by a distro maintainer. > > >> And in this case, it would be really easy. >> >>> Updates in userspace are universally easier; on users, on kernel deves, and >>> on distro devs. >>> >>> >> Why ? Of course, the benfit for kernel-developers is that the work is >> done by others... >> But for the distros it makes life much more difficult in many respects. >> > > I highly doubt this. Distros must very carefully test all the kernel > changes they decide to pull in. Each and every change in a kernel-layer is > a high-risk change for them. Changing userspace packages is much > lower-risk, and thus consumes correspondingly fewer resources. > > And they don't have to test userspace-software carefully, too ??? Especially sysconfig-software ? I can't see a significant difference here. >> And users are in the somehow insane situation that they have to keep the >> driver (kernel) AND the "key to be able to use it" up-to-date. >> That's not only a problem because they both things from different >> sources/directions ! >> > > I think you may have missed part of an earlier discussion, wherein we > discussed such devices which would NOT need ANY kernel changes. The idea > was that udev could "eject" the fake-USB device, then add the device IDs to > the serial/cdc_amc/whatever driver dynamically, at runtime. Thus, no need > to make any kernel updates at all. > > And, that system works *today* with the existing kernel code. > > Matt > You didn't understand me right. No problem. I was talking about inconsistencies we get when driver and the mode-switch-part come from different sources. That's one of the main problems in Unix-world, maybe that's the price we have to pay for thinking more modular (packages) than in products like in M$-world. But we shouldn't pay that price needlessly because of splitting things at the wrong position. Frank -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-wireless" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
