On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:33:14 +1100 David Gibson <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 07:07:02PM +0100, Halil Pasic wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:48:15 -0500 > > "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 02:06:39PM +0100, Halil Pasic wrote: > > > > On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 14:27:27 +1100 > > > > David Gibson <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 05:31:35PM +0100, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 05:23:20PM +0100, Christian Borntraeger wrote: > > > > > > > >From a users perspective it makes absolutely perfect sense to use the > > > > > > > bounce buffers when they are NEEDED. > > > > > > > Forcing the user to specify iommu_platform just because you need bounce buffers > > > > > > > really feels wrong. And obviously we have a severe performance issue > > > > > > > because of the indirections. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is that the user should not have to specify iommu_platform. > > > > > > We need to make sure any new hypervisor (especially one that might require > > > > > > bounce buffering) always sets it, > > > > > > > > > > So, I have draft qemu patches which enable iommu_platform by default. > > > > > But that's really because of other problems with !iommu_platform, not > > > > > anything to do with bounce buffering or secure VMs. > > > > > > > > > > The thing is that the hypervisor *doesn't* require bounce buffering. > > > > > In the POWER (and maybe s390 as well) models for Secure VMs, it's the > > > > > *guest*'s choice to enter secure mode, so the hypervisor has no reason > > > > > to know whether the guest needs bounce buffering. As far as the > > > > > hypervisor and qemu are concerned that's a guest internal detail, it > > > > > just expects to get addresses it can access whether those are GPAs > > > > > (iommu_platform=off) or IOVAs (iommu_platform=on). > > > > > > > > I very much agree! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as was a rather bogus legacy hack > > > > > > > > > > It was certainly a bad idea, but it was a bad idea that went into a > > > > > public spec and has been widely deployed for many years. We can't > > > > > just pretend it didn't happen and move on. > > > > > > > > > > Turning iommu_platform=on by default breaks old guests, some of which > > > > > we still care about. We can't (automatically) do it only for guests > > > > > that need bounce buffering, because the hypervisor doesn't know that > > > > > ahead of time. > > > > > > > > Turning iommu_platform=on for virtio-ccw makes no sense whatsover, > > > > because for CCW I/O there is no such thing as IOMMU and the addresses > > > > are always physical addresses. > > > > > > Fix the name then. The spec calls is ACCESS_PLATFORM now, which > > > makes much more sense. > > > > I don't quite get it. Sorry. Maybe I will revisit this later. > > Halil, I think I can clarify this. > > The "iommu_platform" flag doesn't necessarily have anything to do with > an iommu, although it often will. Basically it means "access guest > memory via the bus's normal DMA mechanism" rather than "access guest > memory using GPA, because you're the hypervisor and you can do that". > Unfortunately, I don't think this is what is conveyed to the end users. Let's see what do we have documented: Neither Qemu user documentation (https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/qemu-doc.html) nor online help: qemu-system-s390x -device virtio-net-ccw,?|grep iommu iommu_platform=<bool> - on/off (default: false) has any documentation on it. But libvirt does have have documenttion on the knob that contros iommu_platform for QEMU (when QEMU is managed by libvirt): """ Virtio-related options QEMU's virtio devices have some attributes related to the virtio transport under the driver element: The iommu attribute enables the use of emulated IOMMU by the device. The attribute ats controls the Address Translation Service support for PCIe devices. This is needed to make use of IOTLB support (see IOMMU device). Possible values are on or off. Since 3.5.0 """ (https://libvirt.org/formatdomain.html#elementsVirtio) Thus it seems the only available documentation says that it "enables the use of emulated IOMMU by the device". And for vhost-user we have """ When the ``VIRTIO_F_IOMMU_PLATFORM`` feature has not been negotiated: * Guest addresses map to the vhost memory region containing that guest address. When the ``VIRTIO_F_IOMMU_PLATFORM`` feature has been negotiated: * Guest addresses are also called I/O virtual addresses (IOVAs). They are translated to user addresses via the IOTLB. """ (docs/interop/vhost-user.rst) > For the case of ccw, both mechanisms end up being the same thing, > since CCW's normal DMA *is* untranslated GPA access. > Nod. > For this reason, the flag in the spec was renamed to ACCESS_PLATFORM, > but the flag in qemu still has the old name. > Yes, the name in the spec is more neutral. > AIUI, Michael is saying you could trivially change the name in qemu > (obviously you'd need to alias the old name to the new one for > compatibility). > I could, and the I could also ask the libvirt guys to change <driver iommu='X'> to <driver access_platform='X'> or similar and to change their documentation to something that is harder to comprehend. Although I'm not sure they would like the idea. > > Actually, the fact that ccw has no translation makes things easier for > you: you don't really have any impediment to turning ACCESS_PLATFORM > on by default, since it doesn't make any real change to how things > work. Yeah, it should not, in theory, but currently it does in practice. Currently vhost will try to do the IOTLB dance (Jason has a patch that should help with that), and we get the 'use dma api' side effects in the guest (e.g. virtqueue's data go <2G + some overhead). > > The remaining difficulty is that the virtio driver - since it can sit > on multiple buses - won't know this, and will reject the > ACCESS_PLATFORM flag, even though it could just do what it normally > does on ccw and it would work. Right ACCESS_PLATFORM is a funny feature where the device refuses to work if the driver does not ack. > > For that case, we could consider a hack in qemu where for virtio-ccw > devices *only* we allow the guest to nack the ACCESS_PLATFORM flag and > carry on anyway. Normally we insist that the guest accept the > ACCESS_PLATFORM flag if offered, because on most platforms they > *don't* amount to the same thing. Jason found a nice way to differentiate between needs translation and does not need translation. But that patch still requires the ack by the driver (and as Michael has pointed out we have to consider migration). I'm afraid that F_IOMMU_PLATFORM means different things in different contexts, and that this ain't sufficiently documented. I'm tempted to do a proper write-up on this (let's hope my motivation will and my time will allow). I would also very much like to have Conny's opinion on this. Regards, Halil
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