You can only get the boot messages with dmesg if the system finishes booting. If the boot process fails you are SOL! On Wed, 16 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote: > This discussion is because I for one don't care about the boot messages as long as I'm able to get speech when the login prompt comes up. I can always view the boot messages with dmesg if I want. > Greg > > > On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 09:47:22PM +0200, Victor Tsaran wrote: > > Guys, you all perfectly understand that there is no way to have Speakup use > > software synthesizer from the very start of the machine. So, why this > > discussion at all? > > Actually, I recall that superslim notebook computers, such as Sonny Viao, > > play a sound through their sound card at the very beginning of boot process. > > So, perhaps, theoretically it should be possible if all PC's could > > initialize the sound card in a similar way. But this is not so... > > Best, > > Victor > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina at afb.net> > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 6:33 PM > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup > > > > > > > I'll tell you why software speech is a big deal to me. I spend a lot of > > > time on the road. Because I work for a non-profit agency, I'm not > > > usually in First Class when I'm on the airplane. I'm frequently locked > > > into a hotel conference room with anywhere from 20 to 200 other people. > > > Sometimes I have a table to spread my computer out on. Often, I just > > > have my lap. For me, software speech means that I can use linux and > > > speakup with just a headphone--nothing else. Today, it's just a lot more > > > complicated because there's that additional device, and that cable that > > > attaches that additional device to the computer. So, today, when I don't > > > have table space, I run emacspeak with ViaVoice--but I'd sure like to > > > have the speakup option, too. > > > > > > PS: When I'm on the road, I don't usually care if speech starts at the > > > very beginning of the boot process. Mostly, I don't even boot, but > > > rather use the suspend/resume feature of my laptop which, by the way, > > > works pretty well with ViaVoice. > > > > > > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Shaun Oliver wrote: > > > > > > > ok now for my 20c worth. > > > > What the hell is the deal with having software speech or not? In a way I > > > > would prefer it when there is simply no other means of speech output > > but, > > > > it has it's limitations. > > > > 1: aAs far as I'm aware, software synthesys ties up a great deal of > > system > > > > resources including the sound card unless of course you run a sb-live. > > > > 2: Remember that if you do go down the path of software synthesys, you > > > > won't have speech right from the get go when you first turn your > > machine > > > > on. > > > > That's all I wanna say at this point. I don't know much else about but > > > > thought I'd add my thoughts on the matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Shaun.. > > > > "Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?" > > > > EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435 > > > > YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends > > on > > > > www.jong.com:6667 > > > > > > > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > Guess I'll stick with the other OS on that machine perhaps until 2010 > > if need be (grin) > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:22:59PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote: > > > > > > Not at this stage. Serial ports are necessary for us to get speech > > > > > > and none of the install systems I know of come up with parallel > > consoles or > > > > > > software speech. SUSE does do braille I hear though > > > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:04:04AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks for the interesting info on the blazer. So, it looks like a > > eyes-free install of Linux is not possible on a machine with no serial > > ports, right? > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:53:11PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote: > > > > > > > > Unless it is a 2.4.x kernel it can't do console on the line > > printer. > > > > > > > > Even if it does; it won't make the blaser talk; there are no > > flush codes. > > > > > > > > You need to put the blaser on a serial port and even then I > > don't know of anything > > > > > > > > other than emacspeak that supports the bns unless cvs speakup > > does. The blaser > > > > > > > > has old implementations of the bns speech code, but I believe it > > supports > > > > > > > > indexing. Doing an install of Linux with the blaser would also > > be rather bad > > > > > > > > since you have no way to shut up the speech, I've done installs > > like that and > > > > > > > > it gets old real quick especially when the kernel dumps 3k of > > messages out a > > > > > > > > port. > > > > > > > > If you can't shut it up somehow you don't want it for installs. > > One disk error > > > > > > > > will win you half an hour of speech you can't cancel, but do > > give it a try :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding shutting up speakup insert enter doesn't release the > > numpad and the > > > > > > > > review keys remain active. I was talking of a method to > > completely release > > > > > > > > certain consoles including the number pad. > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:29:36PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > I thought we already had the ability to put speakup to sleep > > and to wake it > > > > > > > > > up with ins+numpad-enter. Also, not to get off topic ... I > > know there are > > > > > > > > > some of you out there that either have used or are still using > > emacspeak. > > > > > > > > > Any recommendations on where to start after the howto if I > > decide to take > > > > > > > > > that route until speakup gets software speech? Also, I was > > thinking of how > > > > > > > > > to install Linux on such a system without sited help. I've got > > a braille > > > > > > > > > blazer here. I thought of setting up speech through the > > blazer's parallel > > > > > > > > > port, and using the line printer console. However, when I > > include > > > > > > > > > "console=lp0" on the loadlin command line, the kernel oopses, > > and I don't > > > > > > > > > know of how to activate the console on /dev/lp0 after logon. > > Any > > > > > > > > > suggestions? Thanks. > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > P.S. The kernel *doesn't* oops if I leave that option out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry at gotss.eu.org> > > > > > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:57 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so that was all 1 big long line! I won't be slicing that > > message > > > > > > > > > > down into smaller sections in ed os it remains attached > > below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fundermental problem with software speech and speakup is > > this: > > > > > > > > > > speakup gets control extremely early on in the boot process, > > just after > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > console driver or at the same time. At this point; no sound > > is > > > > > > > > > initialized, > > > > > > > > > > no hard disks are known, ho usb is active, no file systems > > > > > > > > > > are mounted and therefore sound and viavoice can't yet be > > loaded. > > > > > > > > > > Via voice is a huge application, and putting it into the > > kernel isn't an > > > > > > > > > > option since it would make the kernel image too large and > > anything in > > > > > > > > > kernel > > > > > > > > > > image is unswappable and consumes memory. > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention we don't have the viavoice source so we > > > > > > > > > > can't even integrate it if we wanted to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be possible to do something like keep speakup asleep > > until viavoice > > > > > > > > > > is running, and make some shim between speakup and viavoice > > but this > > > > > > > > > > is not trivial. What you are trying to do is take > > information > > > > > > > > > > from kernel space (console driver) handle it with speakup, > > hand it to > > > > > > > > > userspace > > > > > > > > > > to a program that mightn't even be running anymore, have > > that program > > > > > > > > > > synthesize the speech and pass it back to kernel land sound > > drivers that > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > presume you loaded. This is going to make the performance of > > the system > > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > cyphoning honey uphill. Even assuming the speakup mods were > > made by > > > > > > > > > somebody > > > > > > > > > > in the forseeable future, there are many more moving parts > > to make work. > > > > > > > > > > What if one of the tasks such as viavoice dies or sound > > drivers unload, > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > do we tell the kernel to tell user space to tell the kernel > > to tell user > > > > > > > > > space > > > > > > > > > > that something ahs gone wrong? > > > > > > > > > > Emacspeak is a user application. It calls a speech server > > > > > > > > > > to interact with its talking device and assumes that sound > > and viavoice > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > in top shape. When the speech server crashes emacspeak > > respawns it. > > > > > > > > > > What you are asking is for speakup to become re-enterant, > > the ability to > > > > > > > > > put it > > > > > > > > > > to sleep and wake it up at will and the ability to talk to > > it from user > > > > > > > > > space > > > > > > > > > > despite the fact it is kernel code and have that kernel code > > talk back to > > > > > > > > > > user space. This requires a complete redesign of speakup > > > > > > > > > > and although it may be possible, so is Bill Gates giving > > away all his > > > > > > > > > > money and becoming a hermit. > > > > > > > > > > Even if Kirk changed his mind regarding viavoice tomorrow > > and coded flat > > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > until the project was complete it would require months of > > coding time > > > > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > > > the whole system was usable if indeed it could be done. > > > > > > > > > > Remember Windows screen readers run in user land and > > although they hook > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > the windows subsystems they are applications like any other. > > Speakup is in > > > > > > > > > > the kernel itself and is part of the operating system. > > > > > > > > > > Ever had jfw or windoweyes crash and lost your speech? Often > > you are left > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > no clue as to why it happend and often jfw is unrestartable. > > If we were to > > > > > > > > > > have this happen in Linux it may result in bits of the > > kernel becoming > > > > > > > > > > unusable and could lead to an entire system crash. > > > > > > > > > > My personal recommendation is to learn how to use emacspeak, > > preferably > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > a seasoned emacs user and learn about term mode and shell > > mode. > > > > > > > > > > W3 is a nice browser, vm works well and so does emacspeak. > > Once you have > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > down pat, you can then use the c-mode in emacs to start > > writing the code > > > > > > > > > > for speakup and take some of the weight off the existing > > coders <smile> > > > > > > > > > > If it takes you a week to get emacspeak working for you, it > > will tide you > > > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > > > until tuxtalk is ready for prime time. > > > > > > > > > > There are other userland screen readers and one supports > > software speech > > > > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > > > > remember what it is called. Use that until the massive > > > > > > > > > > modifications are in speakup itself around 2010. > > > > > > > > > > If we get more coders things might go faster, but until > > then; you might > > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > to use another solution for accessability if you have no > > serial ports. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Kerry. > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 06:13:40PM -0500, Gregory Nowak > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, here is my penny's worth on software speech for > > speakup. I certinly > > > > > > > > > don't mean to flame or unconstructively critisize here, so > > please read on if > > > > > > > > > you're interested. There are some of us that don't have serial > > ports on a > > > > > > > > > PC, but do have a sound card supported in Linux (based on some > > earlier posts > > > > > > > > > I've seen on this list, I know I'm not alone in this > > situation). As a > > > > > > > > > result, I would personally like to entirely blow away the > > other OS on such a > > > > > > > > > machine, and dedicate it to Linux (simply because I'm getting > > tired of using > > > > > > > > > the other OS on it, and because all its hardware is Linux > > compatible). I > > > > > > > > > know that Kirk mentioned that he was working on a software > > synth that would > > > > > > > > > work with speakup in the far future, and that he wouldn't > > write anything for > > > > > > > > > IBM viavoice, because it wasn't an opensource product. > > However, as I stated > > > > > > > > > earlier, there are thoes of us that would like to be able to > > use software > > > > > > > > > speech with speakup in the very soon future (now). Yes, I know > > that I could > > > > > > > > > use emacspeak which supports viavoice. However, I've recently > > downloaded it > > > > > > > > > and played with it for two days (even read the howto). Given > > a choice of > > > > > > > > > access though, I would much rather stick with speakup. Thus, > > not writing a > > > > > > > > > driver for a product that is not opensource (and so far for me > > works without > > > > > > > > > a hitch) is a serious limitation to access. Speakup certinly > > doesn't have to > > > > > > > > > be distributted with viavoice (emacspeak isn't), but it would > > be nice to > > > > > > > > > have the option of using it. It shouldn't be that hard to > > modify a dectalk > > > > > > > > > or doubletalk PC driver to work with the speech engine. I've > > taken c++ my > > > > > > > > > junior and senior years of high scghool (AP computer science). > > Even so, I > > > > > > > > > have somewhat of an understanding on how the sample programs > > work that come > > > > > > > > > with the engine. I also plan to read the API docs, and > > hopefully learn more. > > > > > > > > > As you can see, I'm not a candidate to write the speakup > > driver for > > > > > > > > > viavoice, so I'm not volenteering. I certinly wouldn't mind > > switching to the > > > > > > > > > opensource engine when it became usable. However ... ok, I've > > wined enough. > > > > > > > > > Kirk, I guess I'm sim > > > > > > > > > > ng your mind regarding viavoice as a speech engine for > > speakup for now at > > > > > > > > > least. If there is anyone else here that agrees with me, > > please write so > > > > > > > > > that we could see how many more takers there are, and maybe > > try to persaude > > > > > > > > > Kirk some more to change his mind. Thanks for reading. > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net > > > > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au > > > > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net > > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au > > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina at afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper, > > Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.html > > > > > > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther King > > Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at > > > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp > > > > > > Learn how to make accessible software at > > http://www.afb.org/technology/accessapp.html > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > My web site is http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh The Moon is Waning Crescent (36% of Full)
