I'll tell you why software speech is a big deal to me. I spend a lot of time on the road. Because I work for a non-profit agency, I'm not usually in First Class when I'm on the airplane. I'm frequently locked into a hotel conference room with anywhere from 20 to 200 other people. Sometimes I have a table to spread my computer out on. Often, I just have my lap. For me, software speech means that I can use linux and speakup with just a headphone--nothing else. Today, it's just a lot more complicated because there's that additional device, and that cable that attaches that additional device to the computer. So, today, when I don't have table space, I run emacspeak with ViaVoice--but I'd sure like to have the speakup option, too. PS: When I'm on the road, I don't usually care if speech starts at the very beginning of the boot process. Mostly, I don't even boot, but rather use the suspend/resume feature of my laptop which, by the way, works pretty well with ViaVoice. On Wed, 16 May 2001, Shaun Oliver wrote: > ok now for my 20c worth. > What the hell is the deal with having software speech or not? In a way I > would prefer it when there is simply no other means of speech output but, > it has it's limitations. > 1: aAs far as I'm aware, software synthesys ties up a great deal of system > resources including the sound card unless of course you run a sb-live. > 2: Remember that if you do go down the path of software synthesys, you > won't have speech right from the get go when you first turn your machine > on. > That's all I wanna say at this point. I don't know much else about but > thought I'd add my thoughts on the matter. > > > Shaun.. > "Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?" > EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435 > YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends on > www.jong.com:6667 > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Guess I'll stick with the other OS on that machine perhaps until 2010 if need be (grin) > > Greg > > > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:22:59PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote: > > > Not at this stage. Serial ports are necessary for us to get speech > > > and none of the install systems I know of come up with parallel consoles or > > > software speech. SUSE does do braille I hear though > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:04:04AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > Thanks for the interesting info on the blazer. So, it looks like a eyes-free install of Linux is not possible on a machine with no serial ports, right? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:53:11PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote: > > > > > Unless it is a 2.4.x kernel it can't do console on the line printer. > > > > > Even if it does; it won't make the blaser talk; there are no flush codes. > > > > > You need to put the blaser on a serial port and even then I don't know of anything > > > > > other than emacspeak that supports the bns unless cvs speakup does. The blaser > > > > > has old implementations of the bns speech code, but I believe it supports > > > > > indexing. Doing an install of Linux with the blaser would also be rather bad > > > > > since you have no way to shut up the speech, I've done installs like that and > > > > > it gets old real quick especially when the kernel dumps 3k of messages out a > > > > > port. > > > > > If you can't shut it up somehow you don't want it for installs. One disk error > > > > > will win you half an hour of speech you can't cancel, but do give it a try :-) > > > > > > > > > > Regarding shutting up speakup insert enter doesn't release the numpad and the > > > > > review keys remain active. I was talking of a method to completely release > > > > > certain consoles including the number pad. > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:29:36PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > I thought we already had the ability to put speakup to sleep and to wake it > > > > > > up with ins+numpad-enter. Also, not to get off topic ... I know there are > > > > > > some of you out there that either have used or are still using emacspeak. > > > > > > Any recommendations on where to start after the howto if I decide to take > > > > > > that route until speakup gets software speech? Also, I was thinking of how > > > > > > to install Linux on such a system without sited help. I've got a braille > > > > > > blazer here. I thought of setting up speech through the blazer's parallel > > > > > > port, and using the line printer console. However, when I include > > > > > > "console=lp0" on the loadlin command line, the kernel oopses, and I don't > > > > > > know of how to activate the console on /dev/lp0 after logon. Any > > > > > > suggestions? Thanks. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > P.S. The kernel *doesn't* oops if I leave that option out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry at gotss.eu.org> > > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:57 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so that was all 1 big long line! I won't be slicing that message > > > > > > > down into smaller sections in ed os it remains attached below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fundermental problem with software speech and speakup is this: > > > > > > > speakup gets control extremely early on in the boot process, just after > > > > > > the > > > > > > > console driver or at the same time. At this point; no sound is > > > > > > initialized, > > > > > > > no hard disks are known, ho usb is active, no file systems > > > > > > > are mounted and therefore sound and viavoice can't yet be loaded. > > > > > > > Via voice is a huge application, and putting it into the kernel isn't an > > > > > > > option since it would make the kernel image too large and anything in > > > > > > kernel > > > > > > > image is unswappable and consumes memory. > > > > > > > Not to mention we don't have the viavoice source so we > > > > > > > can't even integrate it if we wanted to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be possible to do something like keep speakup asleep until viavoice > > > > > > > is running, and make some shim between speakup and viavoice but this > > > > > > > is not trivial. What you are trying to do is take information > > > > > > > from kernel space (console driver) handle it with speakup, hand it to > > > > > > userspace > > > > > > > to a program that mightn't even be running anymore, have that program > > > > > > > synthesize the speech and pass it back to kernel land sound drivers that > > > > > > we > > > > > > > presume you loaded. This is going to make the performance of the system > > > > > > like > > > > > > > cyphoning honey uphill. Even assuming the speakup mods were made by > > > > > > somebody > > > > > > > in the forseeable future, there are many more moving parts to make work. > > > > > > > What if one of the tasks such as viavoice dies or sound drivers unload, > > > > > > how > > > > > > > do we tell the kernel to tell user space to tell the kernel to tell user > > > > > > space > > > > > > > that something ahs gone wrong? > > > > > > > Emacspeak is a user application. It calls a speech server > > > > > > > to interact with its talking device and assumes that sound and viavoice > > > > > > are > > > > > > > in top shape. When the speech server crashes emacspeak respawns it. > > > > > > > What you are asking is for speakup to become re-enterant, the ability to > > > > > > put it > > > > > > > to sleep and wake it up at will and the ability to talk to it from user > > > > > > space > > > > > > > despite the fact it is kernel code and have that kernel code talk back to > > > > > > > user space. This requires a complete redesign of speakup > > > > > > > and although it may be possible, so is Bill Gates giving away all his > > > > > > > money and becoming a hermit. > > > > > > > Even if Kirk changed his mind regarding viavoice tomorrow and coded flat > > > > > > out > > > > > > > until the project was complete it would require months of coding time > > > > > > before > > > > > > > the whole system was usable if indeed it could be done. > > > > > > > Remember Windows screen readers run in user land and although they hook > > > > > > into > > > > > > > the windows subsystems they are applications like any other. Speakup is in > > > > > > > the kernel itself and is part of the operating system. > > > > > > > Ever had jfw or windoweyes crash and lost your speech? Often you are left > > > > > > with > > > > > > > no clue as to why it happend and often jfw is unrestartable. If we were to > > > > > > > have this happen in Linux it may result in bits of the kernel becoming > > > > > > > unusable and could lead to an entire system crash. > > > > > > > My personal recommendation is to learn how to use emacspeak, preferably > > > > > > from > > > > > > > a seasoned emacs user and learn about term mode and shell mode. > > > > > > > W3 is a nice browser, vm works well and so does emacspeak. Once you have > > > > > > this > > > > > > > down pat, you can then use the c-mode in emacs to start writing the code > > > > > > > for speakup and take some of the weight off the existing coders <smile> > > > > > > > If it takes you a week to get emacspeak working for you, it will tide you > > > > > > over > > > > > > > until tuxtalk is ready for prime time. > > > > > > > There are other userland screen readers and one supports software speech > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > remember what it is called. Use that until the massive > > > > > > > modifications are in speakup itself around 2010. > > > > > > > If we get more coders things might go faster, but until then; you might > > > > > > need > > > > > > > to use another solution for accessability if you have no serial ports. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Kerry. > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 06:13:40PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, here is my penny's worth on software speech for speakup. I certinly > > > > > > don't mean to flame or unconstructively critisize here, so please read on if > > > > > > you're interested. There are some of us that don't have serial ports on a > > > > > > PC, but do have a sound card supported in Linux (based on some earlier posts > > > > > > I've seen on this list, I know I'm not alone in this situation). As a > > > > > > result, I would personally like to entirely blow away the other OS on such a > > > > > > machine, and dedicate it to Linux (simply because I'm getting tired of using > > > > > > the other OS on it, and because all its hardware is Linux compatible). I > > > > > > know that Kirk mentioned that he was working on a software synth that would > > > > > > work with speakup in the far future, and that he wouldn't write anything for > > > > > > IBM viavoice, because it wasn't an opensource product. However, as I stated > > > > > > earlier, there are thoes of us that would like to be able to use software > > > > > > speech with speakup in the very soon future (now). Yes, I know that I could > > > > > > use emacspeak which supports viavoice. However, I've recently downloaded it > > > > > > and played with it for two days (even read the howto). Given a choice of > > > > > > access though, I would much rather stick with speakup. Thus, not writing a > > > > > > driver for a product that is not opensource (and so far for me works without > > > > > > a hitch) is a serious limitation to access. Speakup certinly doesn't have to > > > > > > be distributted with viavoice (emacspeak isn't), but it would be nice to > > > > > > have the option of using it. It shouldn't be that hard to modify a dectalk > > > > > > or doubletalk PC driver to work with the speech engine. I've taken c++ my > > > > > > junior and senior years of high scghool (AP computer science). Even so, I > > > > > > have somewhat of an understanding on how the sample programs work that come > > > > > > with the engine. I also plan to read the API docs, and hopefully learn more. > > > > > > As you can see, I'm not a candidate to write the speakup driver for > > > > > > viavoice, so I'm not volenteering. I certinly wouldn't mind switching to the > > > > > > opensource engine when it became usable. However ... ok, I've wined enough. > > > > > > Kirk, I guess I'm sim > > > > > > > ng your mind regarding viavoice as a speech engine for speakup for now at > > > > > > least. If there is anyone else here that agrees with me, please write so > > > > > > that we could see how many more takers there are, and maybe try to persaude > > > > > > Kirk some more to change his mind. Thanks for reading. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina at afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper, Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.html Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp Learn how to make accessible software at http://www.afb.org/technology/accessapp.html
