On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:32:10AM -0700, Casey Schaufler wrote:
Good morning, I hope the weekend has been enjoyable for everyone.
> >> On 7/2/2019 12:42 AM, Xing, Cedric wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> Guess this discussion will never end if we don't get into
> >>> code. Guess it'd be more productive to talk over phone then come back
> >>> to this thread with a conclusion. Will that be ok with you?
> >> I don't think that a phone call is going to help. Talking code
> >> issues tends to muddle them in my brain. If you can give me a few
> >> days I will propose a rough version of how I think your code should
> >> be integrated into the LSM environment. I'm spending more time
> >> trying (unsuccessfully :( ) to discribe the issues in English than
> >> it will probably take in C.
> > While Casey is off writing his rosetta stone,
> I'd hardly call it that. More of an effort to round the corners on
> the square peg. And Cedric has some ideas on how to approach that.
Should we infer from this comment that, of the two competing
strategies, Cedric's is the favored architecture?
> > let me suggest that the
> > most important thing we need to do is to take a little time, step back
> > and look at the big picture with respect to what we are trying to
> > accomplish and if we are going about it in a way that makes any sense
> > from an engineering perspective.
> >
> > This conversation shouldn't be about SGX, it should be about the best
> > way for the kernel/LSM to discipline a Trusted Execution Environment
> > (TEE). As I have noted previously, a TEE is a 'blackbox' that, by
> > design, is intended to allow execution of code and processing of data
> > in a manner that is resistant to manipulation or inspection by
> > untrusted userspace, the kernel and/or the hardware itself.
> >
> > Given that fact, if we are to be intellectually honest, we need to ask
> > ourselves how effective we believe we can be in controlling any TEE
> > with kernel based mechanisms. This is particularly the case if the
> > author of any code running in the TEE has adversarial intent.
> >
> > Here is the list of controls that we believe an LSM can, effectively,
> > implement against a TEE:
> >
> > 1.) Code provenance and origin.
> >
> > 2.) Cryptographic verification of dynamically executable content.
> >
> > 2.) The ability of a TEE to implement anonymous executable content.
> >
> > If people are in agreement with this concept, it is difficult to
> > understand why we should be implementing complex state machines and
> > the like, whether it is in the driver or the LSM. Security code has
> > to be measured with a metric of effectiveness, otherwise we are
> > engaging in security theater.
> >
> > I believe that if we were using this lens, we would already have a
> > mainline SGX driver, since we seem to have most of the needed LSM
> > infrastructure and any additional functionality would be a straight
> > forward implementation. Most importantly, the infrastructure would
> > not be SGX specific, which would seem to be a desirable political
> > concept.
> Generality introduced in the absence of multiple instances
> often results in unnecessary complexity, unused interfaces
> and feature compromise. Guessing what other TEE systems might
> do, and constraining SGX to those models (or the other way around)
> is a well established road to ruin. The LSM infrastructure is
> a fine example. For the first ten years the "general" mechanism
> had a single user. I'd say to hold off on the general until there
> is more experience with the specific. It's easier to construct
> a general mechanism around things that work than to fit things
> that need to work into some preconceived notion of generality.
All well taken points from an implementation perspective, but they
elide the point I was trying to make. Which is the fact that without
any semblance of a discussion regarding the requirements needed to
implement a security architecture around the concept of a TEE, this
entire process, despite Cedric's well intentioned efforts, amounts to
pounding a square solution into the round hole of a security problem.
Which, as I noted in my e-mail, is tantamount to security theater.
Everyone wants to see this driver upstream. If we would have had a
reasoned discussion regarding what it means to implement proper
controls around a TEE, when we started to bring these issues forward
last November, we could have possibly been on the road to having a
driver with reasoned security controls and one that actually delivers
the security guarantees the hardware was designed to deliver.
Best wishes for a productive week to everyone.
Dr. Greg
As always,
Dr. G.W. Wettstein, Ph.D. Enjellic Systems Development, LLC.
4206 N. 19th Ave. Specializing in information infra-structure
Fargo, ND 58102 development.
PH: 701-281-1686 EMAIL: greg@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It
takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite
direction."
-- Albert Einstein
