On Tue, 10 Jun 2014, Catalin Marinas wrote: > Hi Nico, > > Sorry, I can't stay away from this thread ;) ;-) > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 12:25:47AM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2014, Lorenzo Pieralisi wrote: > > > 4) When I am talking about firmware I am talking about sequences that > > > are very close to HW (disabling C bit, cleaning caches, exiting > > > coherency). Erratas notwithstanding, they are being standardized at > > > ARM the best we can. They might even end up being implemented in HW > > > in the not so far future. I understand they are tricky, I understand > > > they take lots of time to implement them and to debug them, what I > > > want to say is that they are becoming standard and we _must_ reuse the > > > same code for all ARM platforms. You can implement them in MCPM (see > > > (1)) or in firmware (and please do not start painting me as firmware > > > hugger here, I am referring to standard power down sequences that > > > again, are very close to HW state machines > > > > That's where the disconnect lies. On the one hand you say "I understand > > they are tricky, I understand they take lots of time to implement them > > and to debug them" and on the other hand you say "They might end up being > > implemented in HW in the not so far future." That simply makes no > > economical sense at all! > > It makes lots of sense, though not from a software maintainability > perspective. It would be nice if everything still looked like ARM7TDMI > but in the race for performance (vs power), hardware becomes more > complex and it's not just the CPU but adjacent parts like interconnects, > caches, asynchronous bridges, voltage shifters, memory controllers, > clocks/PLLs etc. Many of these are simply hidden from the high level OS > like Linux because the OS assumes certain configuration (e.g. access to > memory) and it's only the hardware itself that knows in what order they > can be turned on or off (when triggered explicitly by the OS or an > external event). I agree when the hardware has to handle parallel dependencies ordered in waterfall style. In such cases there is usually no point relying on software to implement what is nevertheless simple determinism with no possible alternative usage. But the *most* important thing is what you put in parents, so let me emphasize on what you just said: When triggered _explicitly_ by the OS or external events > Having an dedicated power controller (e.g. M-class > processor) to handle some of these is a rather flexible approach, other > bits require RTL (and usually impossible to update). The M-class processor should be treated the same way as firmware. It ought to be flexible (certainly more than hardwired hardware), but it shares all the same downsides as firmware and the same concerns apply. > > When some operation is 1) tricky and takes time to debug, and 2) not > > performance critical (no one is trying to get in and out of idle or > > hibernation a billion times per second), then you should never ever put > > such a thing in firmware, and hardware should be completely out of the > > question! > > I agree that things can go wrong (both in hardware and software, no > matter where it runs) but please don't think that such power > architecture has been specifically engineered to hide the hardware from > Linux. It's a necessity for complex systems and the optimal solution is > not always simplification (it's not just ARM+vendors doing this, just > look at the power model of modern x86 processors, hidden nicely from the > software behind a few registers while making things harder for scheduler > which cannot rely on a constant performance level; but it's a trade-off > they are happy to make). I'll claim that this is a bad tradeoff. And the reason why some hardware architects might think it is a good one is because so far we really sucked at software based power management in Linux (and possibly other OSes as well). Hence the (fairly recent) realization that power management has to be integrated and under control of the scheduler rather than existing as some ad hoc subsystem. The reaction from the hardware people often is "the software is crap and makes our hardware look bad, we know better, so let's make it easier on those poor software dudes by handling power management in hardware instead". But ultimately the hardware just can't predict things like software can. It might do a better job than the current software state of affairs, but most likely not be as efficient as a proper software architecture. The hardware may only be reactive, whereas the software can be proactive (when properly done that is). I sense from your paragraph above that ARM might be going the same direction as X86 and that would be very sad. Maybe the best compromise would be for all knobs to be made available to software if software wants to turn off the hardware auto-pilot and take control. This way the hardware guys would cover their arses while still allowing for the possibility that software might be able to out perform the hardware solution. > > > and more importantly if they > > > HAVE to run in secure world that's the only solution we have unless you > > > want to split race conditions between kernel and secure world). > > > > If they HAVE to run in secure world then your secure world architecture > > is simply misdesigned, period. Someone must have ignored the economics > > of modern software development to have come up with this. > > That's the trade-off between software complexity and hardware cost, > gates, power consumption. You can do proper physical separation of the > secure services but this would require a separate CPU that is rarely > used and adds to the overall SoC cost. On large scale hardware > deployment, it's exactly economics that matter and these translate into > hardware cost. The software cost is irrelevant here, whether we like it > or not. I agree with you on the hardware cost (and the same argument applies to power management by the way). But once the hardware is there, the software cost has to be optimized the same way. >From a cost perspective, firmware is always a magnitude more costly to develop and to fix and maintain afterwards than kernel code. So, without requiring full physical separation increasing the hardware cost, I think the software architecture would benefit from a rethought, possibly with the help of small and cheap hardware enhancements. I really think not enough attention has been dedicated to that aspect. Nicolas -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-samsung-soc" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
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