On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:15:53 +0100 Pavel Machek <pavel@xxxxxx> wrote: > Hi! > > On Wed 2018-01-24 09:37:05, Dominik Brodowski wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 07:29:53AM +0100, Martin Schwidefsky wrote: > > > On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:07:19 +0100 > > > Dominik Brodowski <linux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 02:07:01PM +0100, Martin Schwidefsky wrote: > > > > > Add the PR_ISOLATE_BP operation to prctl. The effect of the process > > > > > control is to make all branch prediction entries created by the execution > > > > > of the user space code of this task not applicable to kernel code or the > > > > > code of any other task. > > > > > > > > What is the rationale for requiring a per-process *opt-in* for this added > > > > protection? > > > > > > > > For KPTI on x86, the exact opposite approach is being discussed (see, e.g. > > > > http://lkml.kernel.org/r/1515612500-14505-1-git-send-email-w@xxxxxx ): By > > > > default, play it safe, with KPTI enabled. But for "trusted" processes, one > > > > may opt out using prctrl. > > > > > > The rationale is that there are cases where you got code from *somewhere* > > > and want to run it in an isolated context. Think: a docker container that > > > runs under KVM. But with spectre this is still not really safe. So you > > > include a wrapper program in the docker container to use the trap door > > > prctl to start the potential malicious program. Now you should be good, no? > > > > Well, partly. It may be that s390 and its use cases are special -- but as I > > understand it, this uapi question goes beyond this question: > > > > To my understanding, Linux traditionally tried to aim for the security goal > > of avoiding information leaks *between* users[+], probably even between > > processes of the same user. It wasn't a guarantee, and there always > > It used to be guarantee. It still is, on non-buggy CPUs. In a perfect world none of this would have ever happened. But reality begs to differ. > Leaks between users need to be prevented. > > Leaks between one user should be prevented, too. There are various > ways to restrict the user these days, and for example sandboxed > chromium process should not be able to read my ~/.ssh. Interesting that you mention the use case of a sandboxed browser process. Why do you sandbox it in the first place? Because your do not trust it as it might download malicious java-script code which uses some form of attack to read the content of your ~/.ssh files. That is the use case for the new prctl, limit this piece of code you *identified* as untrusted. > can_ptrace() is closer to "can allow leaks between these two". Still > not quite there, as code might be running in process that > can_ptrace(), but the code has been audited by JIT or something not to > do syscalls. > > > (and will be) information leaks -- and that is where additional safeguards > > such as seccomp come into play, which reduce the attack surface against > > unknown or unresolved security-related bugs. And everyone knew (or should > > have known) that allowing "untrusted" code to be run (be it by an user, be > > it JavaScript, etc.) is more risky. But still, avoiding information leaks > > between users and between processes was (to my understanding) at least a > > goal.[§] > > > > In recent days however, the outlook on this issue seems to have shifted: > > > > - Your proposal would mean to trust all userspace code, unless it is > > specifically marked as untrusted. As I understand it, this would mean that > > by default, spectre isn't fully mitigated cross-user and cross-process, > > though the kernel could. And rogue user-run code may make use of that, > > unless it is run with a special wrapper. > > Yeah, well, that proposal does not fly, then. It does not fly as a solution for the general case if cross-process attacks. But for the special case where you can identify all of the potential untrusted code in your setup it should work just fine, no? -- blue skies, Martin. "Reality continues to ruin my life." - Calvin. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-s390" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
