On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 10:27 PM, MyungJoo Ham <myungjoo.ham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:13 AM, Turquette, Mike <mturquette@xxxxxx> wrote: >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:18 PM, MyungJoo Ham <myungjoo.ham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Turquette, Mike <mturquette@xxxxxx> wrote: >>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:15 AM, MyungJoo Ham <myungjoo.ham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ok.. I see. >>>>> >>>>> Now, I can agree with you that tickle is subset of QoS request. >>>>> >>>>> As long as we have QoS request feature on devices with either OPP or >>>>> DEVFREQ, tickling is not needed. >>>>> >>>>> I'll remove tickle in the next revision (along with some bugfixes for >>>>> bugs found recently). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, it appears that clock-rate-wise QoS request may be dealt at >>>>> OPP so that the OPPs meeting the QoS requests w/ frequency or voltage >>>>> specifications are enabled and returned with opp_find_* functions. >>>>> Maybe we will need to separate enable/disable by >>>>> opp_enable()/opp_disable() from enable/disable by QoS requests so that >>>>> the two may have different semantics. Then, QoS requests cannot >>>>> override opp_disable and opp_enable cannot override QoS requests. This >>>>> way, any clock-setting code properly based on OPP (including any >>>>> customized devfreq governors) cannot violate QoS requests. >>>> >>>> If devfreq used the QoS API in it's ->target() call then this would >>>> not be an issue, and further illustrates the idea of devfreq simply >>>> being a policy into a proper QoS API. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Mike >>>> >>> >>> Yes, if we choose an OPP that meets the PM-QoS requests before calling >>> ->target() in devfreq_do(), there wouldn't be an issue. >>> >>> However, if a device is using DEVFREQ, it also means the device has >>> OPPs (mandatory for DEVFREQ). If the device is using PM QoS as well as >>> OPP, I guess the correctly implemented device driver needs to call >>> opp_enable() and opp_disable() according to PM QoS's update_target() >>> calls through the PM QoS notifier cb. >>> >>> Then, for such drivers, DEVFREQ automatically meets PM QoS requests >>> without any modification; as long as QoS meeting OPPs are enabled at >>> the device driver's PM QoS callback, there is no QoS issue. >>> >>> Therefore, now, it appears that neither OPP or DEVFREQ should be >>> allowed to directly touch PM QoS APIs, but, the device driver should >>> do so with notifier by simply calling opp-enable/disable if the >>> frequency is the key QoS "actuator". >>> >>> If we are going to let DEVFREQ handle its corresponding devices' PM >>> QoS APIs, it would mean that both device driver and its DEVFREQ codes >>> will be handling PM QoS API duplicated (or worse, inconsistently). >> >> I'm not getting too bogged down with the OPP specifics because I don't >> know if that interface is going to be used in the future, and I don't >> think that devfreq will need to know about OPPs once the DVFS QoS API >> exists. In that case, devfreq can just requests clock frequencies >> through the QoS API. I view devfreq's usage of the OPP library as >> temporary. >> >> The real issue here is that we don't want some weird feedback loop >> with device QoS requests and devfreq targets stepping on each other. >> >> One way to handle this is to partition QoS use in drivers away from >> devfreq usage. For example, if a GPU supports performance counters >> and can introspect its own usage, then it is a perfect candidate for >> devfreq; on the flip-side device drivers should *not* be allowed to >> put performance/qos constraints on this particular GPU, since we >> assume that the performance counters/devfreq governor will handle the >> whole job for us. Since this centralizes the decision-making for the >> GPU it is safe for the devfreq->target() call to use the QoS APIs for >> controlling the GPU, since no one else will. This avoids the feedback >> loop. >> >> On the other hand, if the GPU does not support performance counters >> then it should not use devfreq at all and rely 100% of QoS constraints >> from various sources: the GPU driver might request a high OPP every >> time work comes in, coupled with a timeout; if a QoS knob is exported >> to userspace then some OpenGL library might hold constraints through >> it; or some other kernel driver (video-related?) needs to use the GPU >> then it can hold a constraint through the QoS API. >> >> So there is a clear partition of QoS API usage between devices that >> support performance counters and ones that do not. We want to avoid a >> feedback loop here. > > Such weird feedback loop may happen if the result frequency ranges > from QoS are inconsistent with those from DEVFREQ. However, if DEVFREQ > provides frequencies that do not violate QoS requirements, there would > be no such feedback loop. If they are consistent (DEVFREQ never gives > frequencies that do NOT satisfy QoS), DEVFREQ is transparent to PM > QoS. If two devices, x and y both place frequency constraints on device z, then QoS should probably aggregate their requests instead of just taking the max. Then if devfreq also determines that it needs to make a QoS request against device z, then that will get aggregated on top of x and y's requests. This isn't really what we want since x and y's requests may be adequate and devfreq's performance counter sampling is just requesting performance for operations which have already placed requests. > For now, with OPPs, DEVFREQ will always select frequencies that > satisfy QoS requirements if the driver implementation is correct. > > However, as you mentioned, if we assume that OPP is going to disappear > in the future kernel, then we will somehow need to design an interface > for device drivers to provide lists of available frequencies to > DEVFREQ and those lists are going to be runtime-update-able and where > QoS requirements are applied. As with the current DEVFREQ I'm not saying that OPP is going to disappear because I have no idea what the future holds. My point is that devfreq doesn't need to know about OPP at all. The code assumes that OPPs exist for the device and take a frequency as part of devfreq->profile->get_target_freq (or something like that) and they can just pass that frequency to devfreq->profile->target. If that device has support for the OPP library than it can do the job of looking up OPPs, etc. Regards, Mike > implementation, if DEVFREQ chooses frequencies only from those enabled > by the driver (meeting the QoS requirements), things are same with the > cases with OPPs. The reason why QoS requirements are being interpreted > at device drivers, not at DEVFREQ, is that the device driver itself is > the only entity that can interpret QoS requests to frequencies > (latency/#ops/... --> Hz). > > And, for the another point, making PM QoS disabled (or ignored?) for > devices with DEVFREQ, I guess that should be left for each device > driver's decision. Even when DVFS is used for a device, there are > cases where QoS requests are needed as well because DEVFREQ is based > on polling which incurs response time that is not acceptable for some > cases: e.g., a sudden user input at idle in a system with high-speed > displays. Besides, there could be another type of PM QoS requirements: > "under xxx MHz" in order to restrict (or as a response to) the > temperature or power consumption rate, which should affect DEVFREQ's > behavior. For battery-powered devices (laptops will want to do so as > well at userspace), I guess such features will be soon needed; at > least, we are working on it. > > > Cheers! > MyungJoo > >> >> Regards, >> Mike >> >>> Cheers, >>> MyungJoo >>> >>>>> How about this concept of getting QoS requests associated with clock rates? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers! >>>>> MyungJoo. >>>>> -- >>>>> MyungJoo Ham, Ph.D. >>>>> Mobile Software Platform Lab, >>>>> Digital Media and Communications (DMC) Business >>>>> Samsung Electronics >>>>> cell: 82-10-6714-2858 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> linux-pm mailing list >>>>> linux-pm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-pm >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> MyungJoo Ham, Ph.D. >>> Mobile Software Platform Lab, >>> Digital Media and Communications (DMC) Business >>> Samsung Electronics >>> cell: 82-10-6714-2858 >>> >> > > > > -- > MyungJoo Ham, Ph.D. > Mobile Software Platform Lab, > Digital Media and Communications (DMC) Business > Samsung Electronics > cell: 82-10-6714-2858 > _______________________________________________ linux-pm mailing list linux-pm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-pm
