On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 1:19 AM Leon Romanovsky <leon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 01:43:28PM -0700, Alexander Duyck wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 11:41 AM Leon Romanovsky <leon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 08:26:33AM -0700, Alexander Duyck wrote: > > > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2024 at 11:18 PM Leon Romanovsky <leon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2024 at 08:41:11AM -0700, Alexander Duyck wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 7:38 PM Jakub Kicinski <kuba@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > <...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technical solution? Maybe if it's not a public device regression rules > > > > > > > > > don't apply? Seems fairly reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a hypothetical. This driver currently isn't changing anything > > > > > > > > outside of itself. At this point the driver would only be build tested > > > > > > > > by everyone else. They could just not include it in their Kconfig and > > > > > > > > then out-of-sight, out-of-mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not changing does not mean not depending on existing behavior. > > > > > > > Investigating and fixing properly even the hardest regressions in > > > > > > > the stack is a bar that Meta can so easily clear. I don't understand > > > > > > > why you are arguing. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wasn't saying the driver wouldn't be dependent on existing behavior. > > > > > > I was saying that it was a hypothetical that Meta would be a "less > > > > > > than cooperative user" and demand a revert. It is also a hypothetical > > > > > > that Linus wouldn't just propose a revert of the fbnic driver instead > > > > > > of the API for the crime of being a "less than cooperative maintainer" > > > > > > and then give Meta the Nvidia treatment. > > > > > > > > > > It is very easy to be "less than cooperative maintainer" in netdev world. > > > > > 1. Be vendor. > > > > > 2. Propose ideas which are different. > > > > > 3. Report for user-visible regression. > > > > > 4. Ask for a fix from the patch author or demand a revert according to netdev rules/practice. > > > > > > > > > > And voilà, you are "less than cooperative maintainer". > > > > > > > > > > So in reality, the "hypothetical" is very close to the reality, unless > > > > > Meta contribution will be treated as a special case. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > How many cases of that have we had in the past? I'm honestly curious > > > > as I don't actually have any reference. > > > > > > And this is the problem, you don't have "any reference" and accurate > > > knowledge what happened, but you are saying "less than cooperative > > > maintainer". > > <...> > > > Any more info on this? Without context it is hard to say one way or the other. > > <...> > > > I didn't say you couldn't. Without context I cannot say if it was > > deserved or not. > > Florian gave links to the context, so I'll skip this part. > > In this thread, Jakub tried to revive the discussion about it. > https://lore.kernel.org/netdev/20240326133412.47cf6d99@xxxxxxxxxx/ > > <...> I see. So this is what you were referencing. Arguably I can see both sides of the issue. Ideally what should have been presented would have been the root cause of why the diff was breaking things and then it could have been fixed. However instead what was presented was essentially a bisect with a request to revert. Ultimately Eric accepted the revert since there was an issue that needed to be fixed. However I can't tell what went on in terms of trying to get to the root cause as that was taken offline for discussion so I can't say what role Mellanox played in either good or bad other than at least performing the bisect. Ultimately I think this kind of comes down to the hobbyist versus commercial interests issue that I brought up earlier. The hobbyist side should at least be curious about what about the Vagrant implementation was not RFC compliant which the changes supposedly were, thus the interest in getting a root cause. However that said it is broken and needs to be fixed so curiosity be damned, we cannot break userspace or not interop with other TCP implementations. > > The point I was trying to make is that if you are the only owner of > > something, and not willing to work with the community as a maintainer > > Like Jakub, I don't understand why you are talking about regressions in > the driver, while you brought the label of "less than cooperative maintainer" > and asked for "then give Meta the Nvidia treatment". Because I have been trying to keep the whole discussion about the fbnic driver that is presented in this patch set. When I was referring to a "less than cooperative maintainer" it was in response to the hypothetical about what if Meta started refusing to work with the community after this was accepted, and the "Nvidia treatment" I was referring was the graphics side about 10 years ago[1] as the question was about somebody running to Linus to complain that their proprietary hardware got broken by a kernel change. The general idea being if we are a proprietary NIC with ourselves as the only customer Linus would be more likely to give Meta a similar message. > I don't want to get into the discussion about if this driver should be > accepted or not. > > I'm just asking to stop label people and companies based on descriptions > from other people, but rely on facts. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be any sort of attack on Nvidia/Mellanox. The Nvidia I was referencing was the graphics side which had a bad reputation with the community long before Mellanox got involved. > Thanks Thank you. I understand now that you and Jason were just trying to warn me about what the community will and won't accept. Like I mentioned before I had just misconstrued Jason's comments as backing Jiri initially in this. In my mind I was prepared for the Nvidia/Mellanox folks dog piling me so I was just prepared for attacks. Just for the record this will be the third NIC driver I have added to the kernel following igbvf and fm10k, and years maintaining some of the other Intel network drivers. So I am well aware of the expectations of a maintainer. I might be a bit rusty due to a couple years of being focused on this project and not being able to post as much upstream, but as the expression goes "This isn't my first rodeo". - Alex [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/linus-torvalds-says-f-k-you-to-nvidia/
