On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 05:03:45PM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > It isn't a struct device object at all though, it just organizing
> > attributes.
>
> That's the point, it really is not. You are forced to create a real
> object for that subdirectory, and by doing so, you are "breaking" the
> driver/device model. As is evident by userspace not knowing what is
> going on here.
I'm still not really sure about what this means in practice..
I found an nested attribute in RDMA land so lets see how it behaves.
/sys/class/infiniband/ibp0s9/ <-- This is a struct device/ib_device
Then we have 261 'attribute' files under a ports subdirectory, for
instance:
/sys/class/infiniband/ibp0s9/ports/1/cm_tx_retries/dreq
Open/read works fine, and the specialty userspace that people built on
this has been working for a long time.
Does udev see the deeply nested attributes? Apparently yes:
$ udevadm info -a /sys/class/infiniband/ibp0s9
ATTR{ports/1/cm_rx_duplicates/dreq}=="0"
[..]
Given your remarks, I'm surprised, but it seems to work - I assume if
udevadm shows it then all the rules will work too.
Has udev become confused about what is a struct device? Looks like no:
$ udevadm info -a /sys/class/infiniband/ibp0s9/port
Unknown device "/sys/class/infiniband/ibp0s9/port": No such device
Can you give an example where things go wrong?
(and I inherited this RDMA stuff. In the last two years we moved it
all to netlink and modern userspace largely no longer touches sysfs,
but I can't break in-use uAPI)
> > > Does that help? The rules are:
> > > - Once you use a 'struct device', all subdirs below that device
> > > are either an attribute group for that device or a child
> > > device.
> > > - A struct device can NOT have an attribute group as a parent,
> > > it can ONLY have another struct device as a parent.
> > >
> > > If you break those rules, the kernel has the ability to get really
> > > confused unless you are very careful, and userspace will be totally lost
> > > as you can not do anything special there.
> >
> > The kernel gets confused?
>
> Putting a kobject as a child of a struct device can easily cause
> confusion as that is NOT what you should be doing. Especially if you
> then try to add a device to be a child of that kobject.
That I've never seen. I've only seen people making extra levels of
directories for organizing attributes.
> > How do you fix them? It is uAPI at this point so we can't change the
> > directory names. Can't make them struct devices (userspace would get
> > confused if we add *more* sysfs files)
>
> How would userspace get confused? If anything it would suddenly "wake
> up" and see these attributes properly.
We are talking about specialty userspace that is designed to work with
the sysfs layout as-is. Not udev. In some of these subdirs the
userspace does readdir() on - if you start adding random stuff it will
break it.
> > Since it seems like kind of a big problem can we make this allowed
> > somehow?
>
> No, not at all. Please do not do that. I will look into the existing
> users and try to see if I can fix them up. Maybe start annoying people
> by throwing warnings if you try to register a kobject as a child of a
> device...
How does that mesh with our don't break userspace ideal?? :(
> > Well, from what I understand, it wont be used because udev can't do
> > three level deep attributes, and if that hasn't been a problem in that
> > last 10 years for the existing places, it might not ever be needed in
> > udev at all.
>
> If userspace is not seeing these attributes then WHY CREATE THEM AT
> ALL???
*udev* is not the userspace! People expose sysfs attributes and then
make specialty userspace to consume them! I've seen it many times now.
> Seriously, what is needing to see these in sysfs if not the tools that
> we have today to use sysfs? Are you wanting to create new tools instead
> to handle these new attributes? Maybe just do not create them in the
> first place?
This advice is about 10 years too late :(
Regardless, lets not do deeply nested attributes here in PCI. They are
PITA anyhow.
Jason
