On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:16:12 +0100 Alan Cox <alan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Really, what are you getting at? Do you deny that there are programs, > > that prevent a device from sleeping? (Just think of the bouncing > > cows app) > > > > And if you have two kernels, one with which your device is dead after 1 > > hour and one with which your device is dead after 10 hours. Which would > > you prefer? I mean really... this is ridiculous. > > The problem you have is that this is policy. If I have the device wired > to a big screen and I want cows bouncing on it I'll be most upset if > instead it suspends. What you are essentially arguing for is for the > kernel to disobey the userspace. It's as ridiculous (albeit usually less > damaging) as a file system saying "Ooh thats a rude file name, the app > can't have meant it, I'll put your document soemwhere else" > > The whole API feels wrong to me. It's breaking rule #1 of technology "You > cannot solve a social problem with technology". In this case you have a > social/economic problem which is crap code. You solve it with an > economics solution - creative incentives not to produce crap code like > boxes that keep popping up saying "App XYZ is using all your battery" and > red-amber-green powermeter scores in app stores. I'm not saying that your argument is not valid. But why don't you look at suspend blockers as a contract between userspace and kernelspace? An Opt-In to the current guarantees the kernel provides in the non-suspend case. <<If you want to use the rare resource "power" you have to take a suspend blocker. By this you assert that you are a well written application. If you are not well written, you will get the worst of our red-amber-green powermeter scores we have.>> On the other hand, applications can say, they don't need that much power and userspace guaranties and not take a suspend blocker. This is an option which they currently don't have. I don't think opportunistic suspend is a policy decision by the kernel. it is something new. Something which currently only the android userspace implements / supports. If you don't want to suspend while looking at the bouncing-cow, you have to take a suspend blocker and make yourself a user-visible power-eater, or don't do echo "opportunistic" > /sys/power/policy in the first place. This "optionally being badly written, who cares?" is a new feature the kernel can provide to applications. That said, your proposed alternative implementation scheme looks like another possible approach. > That said if you want technical mitigation I think it makes more sense > if you look at it from a different starting point. The starting point > being this: We have idling logic in the kernel and improving this helps > everyone. What is needed to improve the existing logic ? > > - You don't know which processes should be ignored for the purpose of > suspend (except for kernel threads) and there is no way to set this > > - You don't know whether a move from a deep idle to a 'suspend' (which is > just a really deep idle in truth anyway) might break wakeups > requirements because a device has wake dependencies due to hardware > design (eg a port that has no electronics to kick the box out of > suspend into running). This is a problem we have already. [1] > > That maps onto two existing ideas > > Sandboxing/Resource Limits: handling apps that can't be trusted. So the > phone runs the appstore code via something like > > setpidle(getpid(), something); > exec() > > where 'something' is a value with meaning to both user space and to the > existing idling logic in the kernel that basically says to what extent it > is permitted to block idling/suspend. That also seems to tie into some of > the realtime + idle problems. This I think deals with Kevin Hillman's > thoughts on dealing with untrustworthy app code more cleanly and avoids > the need for userspace hackery like the blocker API. > > And an entirely in kernel API where device drivers can indicate that in > their current situation they require that the power level doesn't drop > below some limit unless user requested. This is really important because > the platform vendor of the phone/pda/tablet whatever effectively owns the > kernel - so it's *their* problem, *their* control, *their* hardware and > they can make it work as best for the device. Best of all it means its > all free software stuff so if the vendor screws up you can still fix your > phone. > > Implementation-wise it probably ties into setpidle, its simply that a task > has a pair of idle values, a dynamic one and a base one, the dynamic one > being the base one but updatable temporarily by drivers. > > Alan How does this address the loss of wakeup events while using suspend? (For example the 2 issues formulated by Alan Stern in [1]) cheers, Flo [1]http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/5/21/458 p.s.: dmk@schatten /usr/src/linux $ grep -r "setpidle" . dmk@schatten /usr/src/linux $ -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-omap" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
