For the Buffalo devices we still have a lot of folks using Marvell Kirkwood, Orion5x and MV78100 NAS devices. In a world where SATA provides the cheapest $ per TB storage and Gigabit Ethernet is still standard they end up being surprisingly relevant for hobbyists. The two pre-DTB device files that we're still using are: mach-mv78xx0/buffalo-wxl-setup.c mach-orion5x/terastation_pro2-setup.c If those can stick around for the next LTS kernel that should give me sufficient time to try converting them to DTS like the other Orion5x/Kirkwood devices. Thank you for your attention, -Jeremy On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 12:29:29 PM CDT Arnd Bergmann wrote: > We removed a lot of the unused board files at the beginning of > 2023, and I'd like to plan ahead for other hardware and feature > support that can be removed after the next stable kernel > (linux-6.12). > > TL;DR: I think we can deprecate toolchain support for ARMv4 > (pre-thumb), iWMMXt, BE32 and OABI (-mabi=apcs-gnu) *if* that > helps gcc-15, as we'll likely not need those any more after > gcc-14 will be too old to build new kernels (ca. 2030). > > I hope we can keep reducing the number of non-DT board files a > lot further, but I still expect this to take several more years > before it is DT-only. Please reply here if you are using any > of them so we can spare them once more. > > > == Architectural features == > > These are features that require support from gcc, which in > turn may benefit from dropping it. > > === ARMv3 === > > This was removed in gcc-9, so it will eventually get removed > from the kernel as we raise the minimum compiler versions. > Only RiscPC relies on building with -march=armv3, despite using > an ARMv4 StrongARM CPU. > > === ARMv4 === > > This is used for both StrongARM and FA526 CPUs, which are still > used on a small number of boards. Even the newest chips (moxa > art, ) are close to 20 years olds but were still in use a few years > ago. The last Debian release for these was Lenny (5.0). > > Dropping compiler support now would be appropriate IMHO, and > we can drop kernel support in a few years. > > === ARMv4T === > > We still support six SoC families with ARMv4T cores (ARM720T, > ARM920T and ARM922T). These are equally old to the ARMv4 ones, > but have more users and developers working on them than the > ARMv4 ones. Debian Stretch (9.0) last supported these. > EP93xx in particular is used in some products with long > support cycles, so we may end up supporting these in the > kernel as long as ARMv5. > > === ARMv5 === > > About one third of all supported platforms use ARMv5, > but most of these are near their end of support. Notably > there are still new SAM9 variants from Microchip that are > meant as backward-compatible replacements for their > older variants. > > Debian still supports these, but the lack of FPU and > atomics makes this harder, so I expect this to become > an unofficial port in the future. > > === early ARMv6 === > > This is the ARM1136r0p in NXP i.MX31 and OMAP24xx, which in > practice means just the Nokia N8xx tablet. > It causes a lot of pain to support in the kernel since it > requires special hacks to support in SMP-enabled kernels. > I have a patch series that moves ARMv6 from being ARMv7 > compatible to being ARMv5 compatible inside the kernel, > which should help, but that needs more work. > > === ARMv6K === > > We dropped ARM11MPcore support last year, but still > support ARM1176 (Raspberry Pi 1, AST2500) and ARM1136r1. > These are easy to keep supporting in the kernel. > Distro support is getting harder since they are slightly > too old for the common armv7-a+vfpv3-d16 level. > > === ARMv7-M === > > Cortex-M3/M4/M7 are the only cores we support without an > MMU, currently on 5 microcontroller platforms. Upstream work > on NOMMU kernels has pretty much stopped in 2017 when everyone > moved to open-source RTOS variants like Zephyr. I expect that > we can drop support ten years later in 2027, but gcc will > still have to support them on other operating systems. > > === iWMMXt === > > I'm not aware of any remaining users for iWMMXt, and we dropped > support for ARMv7 PJ4 CPUs (MMP2, Berlin) already, so the > only supported hardware that even has this is Intel/Marvell > PXA and MMP1. > > Dropping support from gcc is probably a good idea now, > it is already unsupported in clang. > > === big endian ARMv5 (BE32) kernel === > > There is one SoC that uses this, the Intel IXP4xx. Older versions > of Debian supported this chip in little-endian mode, but the device > drivers are known to be broken for LE now and would require someone > to spend time on fixing them. > > I would suggest dropping support from gcc, which still gives > us a few years to fix the ixp4xx support, or drop it when > gcc-14 support is dropped from the kernel. Curiously, support > was added in clang not long ago. > > === big-endian ARMv7 (BE8) kernel === > > This is very different from BE32 mode in making more sense > from a kernel point of view. In theory any ARMv7 hardware > should work, though a lot of drivers are buggy. I am not > aware of any actual use cases, though in theory it can be > helpful for testing big-endian userspace when one has > access to Arm hardware but no other big-endian machine. > > We should probably keep this a few more years in both > toolchain and kernel, unless it starts causing actual > problems. I don't think anyone is testing it any more > though. > > Side-note: netbsd has a armv7+be8 variant, so clang will > likely keep supporting be8 even if gcc ends up dropping it > in the future. > > > > == Kernel features == > > === pre-ATAGS param_struct === > > This was deprecated in 2001, to be removed in "5 years > from now", which was a while ago. We can probably > remove it now, or keep it around until the two platforms > using it (RiscPC and Footbridge) are gone. > > === ATAGS based board files === > > After the previous cleanup, there are board 29 files in > 10 SoC platforms remaining. I would hope we can reduce this > significantly again, but need to go through the platforms > individually. ep93xx is getting converted to DT, but the > others have made no progress towards that. > > === OABI kernels === > > Practically everyone uses EABI today, and OABI support was > dropped as a userspace target in gcc-4.8. The kernel still > however allows being built as OABI by passing "-mabi=apcs-gnu", > and this is used as the default for armv4/armv5 kernels. > > This is a frequent source for bugs as driver writers are > unaware of the unusual struct padding, alignment and enum > usage. I've stopped testing it in my randconfig builds > a while ago because of random bugs. > > I would propose to leave the feature in the kernel but > make it harder to enable by accident, changing the default > for all targets to EABI and adding a dependency on > 'CPU_32v4 || EXPERT'. > > For the compiler, I think removing support for -mabi=apcs > makes sense, unless there are non-Linux targets that still > use this. > > === OABI compat mode === > > This is the other way of running OABI binaries, using a > normal EABI kernel. It suffers from a different set of > bugs, as the kernel itself is fine, but driver specific > structure layouts with user interfaces (usually ioctl) > may be incompatible. > > The maintenance cost in the kernel is much lower than > native OABI kernels, but I suspect there are even > fewer users. > > Since there was never an EABI desktop distro for > ARMv4, we probably want to keep at least one of the > two (OABI or OABI_COMPAT) around as long as we > support StrongARM machines. > > === NWFPE === > > Russell had a patch set to remove this 11 years ago, > but ended up keeping it. This is fundamentally tied > to OABI userland, so we'll likely need to keep it for > as long as either OABI or OABI_COMPAT remains. > > See the discussion at > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-arm-kernel/20130410191206.GM14496@xxxxxxxxx.l > inux.org.uk/ > > === Highmem === > > Most Arm machines are fine without highmem support and can > use something like CONFIG_VMSPLIT_2GB to address up to 2GB > of physical memory. Machines larger than only popped up > around the time of the Cortex-A15 in 2012 and for the most > part got replaced by 64-bit chips within a short time. > In addition, there are also a handful of Cortex-A9 and > Marvell CPU based machines that have either more than 2GB > of RAM or a very sparse memory map that requires highmem > support. > > Linus Walleij has done some work towards being able to use > up to 4GB of RAM with LPAE (Cortex-A7/A15 and later) > machines, which I think still needs to be finished before > we can remove support for highmem. > > === Sparsemem === > > There is a new discussion about removing support for > traditional sparsemem support, see > https://lwn.net/Articles/974517/. > > This also relates to machines that currently need highmem > support in order to use all of their RAM even if the > total size would fit into the lowmem area, e.g. on > Renesas R-Car SoCs. In theory it should be possible to > move the indirection layer from __page_to_pfn() to > __pfn_to_phys() and support discontiguous lowmem > that way, but I don't think anyone is working on that, > and I don't know if that addresses the concerns with > today's sparsemem implementation. > > > > == Platform support == > > === RiscPC === > > This is the oldest supported platform, and it will > eventually have to get removed as it no longer works > with gcc-9 or higher because of the ARMv3 removal. > > As far as I know, nobody aside from Russell has booted > this machine in many years, so if he's stops upgrading > his kernels, we could also remove it earlier. > > === SA1100, Footbridge === > > These are the other StrongARM based platforms, which > like RiscPC are only relevant for nostalgia. When we > removed the board files for 6.3, a couple of StrongARM > machines were left that someone said they were interested > in getting working again, and converting to DT. I don't > think there has been any progress on this, so it seems > unlikely to happen in the future. The last StrongARM > machine that got added and that is still supported was > the ipaq h3600 in linux-2.4.13. > > There are also machines that Russell is (was?) using: > sa1100/assabet, footbridge/netwinder and footbridge/ebsa285. > > Being able to remove these would get rid of a lot of > complexity both from the hardware being unusual and > from them not using DT. > > Need input from Russell. > > === Gemini, Moxart === > > These both use the Faraday FA526 CPU core that like > StrongARM implements ARMv4 rather than ARMv4T with thumb. > > The chips are also over 20 years old, but the kernel > code has been updated and is not a maintenance burden > by itself, so there is no value in removing these > machines until StrongARM is also gone. > > On the other hand, removing both FA526 and StrongARM > platforms means we can probably remove ARMv4 (non-T), > OABI and NWFPE support more quickly if we want, or > we can wait until a few years after gcc drops ARMv4. > > OpenWRT lists the gemini platform as supported in > https://openwrt.org/docs/techref/targets/gemini, but > none of the individual machines have builds for the > current release. > > Need input from Linus Walleij. > > === PXA board files === > > There are two board files left in the PXA code that > we did not remove two years ago, in the hope that this > would help the DT conversion. Nothing happened > since then, though qemu removed support for their > releases. > > Unless someone has specific plans to work on them, > I would remove these in early 2025. > > There is also DT support for some PXA boards, which > would likely stay around. > > === OMAP1 === > > This is now the only ARMv4T/ARMv5 platform with no > DT support, making it a target for removal at some > point. Unlike PXA, there are still users, but it seems > there are no current plans for a DT conversion. > > I would suggest going through the five boards > individually to see which ones we can remove in 2025 > and keep the remaining ones for the moment. > > === Nspire, AT91RM9200, CLPS711X, EP93xx, iMX1 === > > These are the other ARMv4T targets. Nikita is in > the process of finishing up the DT support for EP93xx, > after that these are very cheap to maintain in the > kernel since the platform code is all up to date. > > Unless there is a specific reason to drop these, I > expect them to stay around as long as ARMv5, probably > to the end of this decade. > > === OMAP24xx === > > This is the one ARMv6 (non-K) platform that has active > users. The platform support is fine, so it depends on > what we do with arm1136r0 CPU support. If my patch > for armv6 support in the armv5 kernel works out, we > can treat it as a v5 variant and keep it as long as > v5 itself, otherwise it would be nice to remove the > kernel complexity by dropping arm1136r0 support like > we did with arm11mpcore. > > === iMX31, realview/integrator with 1136r0 === > > I'm not aware of any users, but these don't get in > the way as long as OMAP2 is there. Whatever we do > with OMAP2 can also happen with these. > > === S3C64xx (Cragganmore) === > > This is the only ARMv6K board without devicetree > support, and the board file contains about a similar > amount of complexity as all other board files > combined. > > arch/arm/mach-s3c/Kconfig.s3c64xx lists it as scheduled > for removal early next year, which would allow a large > amount of cleanup in platform and driver infrastructure. > > However, Mark Brown is actively using this machine > as a testbed for audio codecs, which is what it was > designed for by Wolfson (now Cirrus). > > There is no satisfying outcome of this that I see, > my best idea is to delay the removal until Mark has > moved on to something else. > > TODO: find out if Cirrus have a replacement that > Mark can migrate to. > > === Orion5x, mv78xx0, dove board files === > > Like PXA, these were left behind in the hope that there > would be progress towards DT conversion, but none of that > happened aside from a small set of mv78xx0 bugfixes. > On the contrary, Debian has now dropped the > orion5x kernel binary citing lack of users, so it seems > much less likely to ever complete. Out of the machines > about half the orion5x ones have DT support, mv78xx0 > has none, and dove DT support exists but is less > complete than the board file. > > There is still a community around running Debian > on some of these devices at > https://github.com/1000001101000/Debian_on_Buffalo/wiki > > I would suggest removing all these board files in early > 2025 to still allow building a 3rd-party kernel using > the Debian 13 release sources. The orion5x DT support > can get merged into mach-mvebu then. > > === iMX35, WM8750, AST2500, BCM2835 === > > These four are all ARMv6K platforms and fairly well > supported, though only AST2500 and BCM2835 have an > active user base. Support for ARMv6K is likely to > stay around at last as long as ARMv5, so there are > no plans for removing these. > > Most distros that had Raspberry Pi 1 armv6k-hardfloat > support have dropped that now, but some minor ones > still exist, while Debian and others runs ARMv5-softfloat > userspace on them. > > === stm32f4/f7/h7 microcontrollers === > > These are the only MMU-less Arm chips that see any > continued development, as ST keeps supporting their > existing customers. There are also newer MCUs based > on Cortex-M33 and up, but those don't run Linux > as far as I know. Let's keep until at least 2026 > before we start discussing deprecation. > > All other MCUs (IMXRT, SAMV7, LPC18xx, MPS2) are > used much less than STM32F and can probably follow > the same path once they get in the way of dropping > v7m support.
