On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 04:04:34PM -0500, Jeff Layton wrote: > On Sat, 2017-03-11 at 15:46 -0500, Chuck Lever wrote: > > > On Mar 11, 2017, at 12:08 PM, Jeff Layton <jlayton@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, 2017-03-11 at 11:53 -0500, Chuck Lever wrote: > > > > Hi Bruce, Jeff- > > > > > > > > I've observed some interesting Linux NFS server behavior (v4.1.12). > > > > > > > > We have a single system that has an NFSv4 mount via the kernel NFS > > > > client, and an NFSv3 mount of the same export via a user space NFS > > > > client. These two clients are accessing the same set of files. > > > > > > > > The following pattern is seen on the wire. I've filtered a recent > > > > capture on the FH of one of the shared files. > > > > > > > > ---- cut here ---- > > > > > > > > 18507 19.483085 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 238 V4 Call ACCESS FH: 0xc930444f, [Check: RD MD XT XE] > > > > 18508 19.483827 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 194 V4 Reply (Call In 18507) ACCESS, [Access Denied: XE], [Allowed: RD MD XT] > > > > 18510 19.484676 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 434 V4 Reply (Call In 18509) OPEN StateID: 0x6de3 > > > > > > > > This OPEN reply offers a read delegation to the kernel NFS client. > > > > > > > > 18511 19.484806 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 230 V4 Call GETATTR FH: 0xc930444f > > > > 18512 19.485549 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 274 V4 Reply (Call In 18511) GETATTR > > > > 18513 19.485611 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 230 V4 Call GETATTR FH: 0xc930444f > > > > 18514 19.486375 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 186 V4 Reply (Call In 18513) GETATTR > > > > 18515 19.486464 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 254 V4 Call CLOSE StateID: 0x6de3 > > > > 18516 19.487201 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 202 V4 Reply (Call In 18515) CLOSE > > > > 18556 19.498617 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 210 V3 READ Call, FH: 0xc930444f Offset: 8192 Len: 8192 > > > > > > > > This READ call by the user space client does not conflict with the > > > > read delegation. > > > > > > > > 18559 19.499396 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 8390 V3 READ Reply (Call In 18556) Len: 8192 > > > > 18726 19.568975 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 310 V3 LOOKUP Reply (Call In 18725), FH: 0xc930444f > > > > 18727 19.569170 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 210 V3 READ Call, FH: 0xc930444f Offset: 0 Len: 512 > > > > 18728 19.569923 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 710 V3 READ Reply (Call In 18727) Len: 512 > > > > 18729 19.570135 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 234 V3 SETATTR Call, FH: 0xc930444f > > > > 18730 19.570901 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 214 V3 SETATTR Reply (Call In 18729) Error: NFS3ERR_JUKEBOX > > > > > > > > The user space client has attempted to extend the file. This does > > > > conflict with the read delegation held by the kernel NFS client, > > > > so the server returns JUKEBOX, the equivalent of NFS4ERR_DELAY. > > > > This causes a negative performance impact on the user space NFS > > > > client. > > > > > > > > 18731 19.575396 10.0.2.11 -> 10.0.1.8 NFS 250 V4 Call DELEGRETURN StateID: 0x6de3 > > > > 18732 19.576132 10.0.1.8 -> 10.0.2.11 NFS 186 V4 Reply (Call In 18731) DELEGRETURN > > > > > > > > No CB_RECALL was done to trigger this DELEGRETURN. Apparently > > > > the application that was accessing this file via the kernel OS > > > > client decided already that it no longer needed the file before > > > > the server could send the CB_RECALL. Sign of perhaps a race > > > > between the applications accessing the file via these two > > > > mounts. > > > > > > > > ---- cut here ---- > > > > > > > > The server is aware of non-NFSv4 accessors of this file in frame > > > > 18556. NFSv3 has no OPEN operation, of course, so it's not > > > > possible for the server to determine how the NFSv3 client will > > > > subsequently access this file. > > > > > > > > > > Right. Why should we assume that the v3 client will do anything other > > > than read there? If we recall the delegation just for reads, then we > > > potentially negatively affect the performance of the v4 client. > > > > > > > Seems like at frame 18556, it would be a best practice to recall > > > > the delegation to avoid potential future conflicts, such as the > > > > SETATTR in frame 18729. > > > > > > > > Or, perhaps that READ isn't the first NFSv3 access of that file. > > > > After all, a LOOKUP would have to be done to retrieve that file's > > > > FH. The OPEN in frame 18556 perhaps could have avoided offering > > > > the READ delegation, knowing there is a recent non-NFSv4 accessor > > > > of that file. > > > > > > > > Would these be difficult or inappropriate policies to implement? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reads are not currently considered to be conflicting access vs. a read > > > delegation. > > > > Strictly speaking, a single NFSv3 READ does not violate the guarantee > > made by the read delegation. And, strictly speaking, there can be no > > OPEN conflict because NFSv3 does not have an OPEN operation. > > > > The question is whether the server has an adequate mechanism for > > delaying NFSv3 accessors when an NFSv4 delegation must be recalled. > > > > NFS3ERR_JUKEBOX and NFS4ERR_DELAY share the same numeric value, but > > imply different semantics. > > > > RFC1813 says: > > > > NFS3ERR_JUKEBOX > > The server initiated the request, but was not able to > > complete it in a timely fashion. The client should wait > > and then try the request with a new RPC transaction ID. > > For example, this error should be returned from a server > > that supports hierarchical storage and receives a request > > to process a file that has been migrated. In this case, > > the server should start the immigration process and > > respond to client with this error. > > > > Some clients respond to NFS3ERR_JUKEBOX by waiting quite some time > > before retrying. > > > > RFC7530 says: > > > > 13.1.1.3. NFS4ERR_DELAY (Error Code 10008) > > > > For any of a number of reasons, the replier could not process this > > operation in what was deemed a reasonable time. The client should > > wait and then try the request with a new RPC transaction ID. > > > > The following are two examples of what might lead to this situation: > > > > o A server that supports hierarchical storage receives a request to > > process a file that had been migrated. > > > > o An operation requires a delegation recall to proceed, and waiting > > for this delegation recall makes processing this request in a > > timely fashion impossible. > > > > An NFSv4 client is prepared to retry this error almost immediately > > because most of the time it is due to the second bullet. > > > > I agree that not recalling after an NFSv3 READ is reasonable in some > > cases. However, I demonstrated a case where the current policy does > > not serve one of these clients well at all. In fact, the NFSv3 > > accessor in this case is the performance-sensitive one. > > > > To put it another way, the NFSv4 protocol does not forbid the > > current Linux server policy, but interoperating well with existing > > NFSv3 clients suggests it's not an optimal policy choice. > > > > I think that is entirely dependent on the workload. If we proactively > recall delegations because we think the v3 client _might_ do some > conflicting access, and then it doesn't, then that's also a non-optimal > choice. > > > > > > I think that's the correct thing to do. Until we have some > > > sort of conflicting behavior I don't see why you'd want to prematurely > > > recall the delegation. > > > > The reason to recall a delegation is to avoid returning > > NFS3ERR_JUKEBOX if at all possible, because doing so is a drastic > > remedy that results in a performance regression. > > > > The negative impact of not having a delegation is small. The negative > > impact of returning NFS3ERR_JUKEBOX to a SETATTR or WRITE can be as > > much as a 5 minute wait. (This is intolerably long for, say, online > > transaction processing workloads). > > > > That sounds like a deficient v3 client, IMO. There's nothing in the v3 > spec that I know of that advocates a delay that long before > reattempting. I'm pretty sure the Linux client treats NFSERR3_JUKEBOX > and NFS4ERR_DELAY more or less equivalently. The v3 client uses a 5 second delay (see NFS_JUKEBOX_RETRY_TIME). The v4 client, at least in the case of operations that could break a deleg, does exponential backoff starting with a tenth of a second--see nfs4_delay. So Trond's been taking the spec at its word here. Like Jeff I'm pretty unhappy at the idea of revoking delegations preemptively on v3 read and lookup. And a 5 minute wait does sound like a client problem. > > The server can detect there are other accessors that do not provide > > OPEN/CLOSE semantics. In addition, the server cannot predict when one > > of these accessors may use a WRITE or SETATTR. And finally it does > > not have a reasonably performant mechanism for delaying those > > accessors when a delegation must be recalled. > > > > Interoperability is hard (and sometimes it doesn't work well :). We > simply don't have enough info to reliably guess what the v3 client will > do in this situation. > > That said, I wouldn't have a huge objection to a server side tunable > (module parameter?) that says "Recall read delegations on v2/3 READ > calls". Make it default to off, and then people in your situation could > set it if they thought it a better policy for their workload. I also wonder if in v3 case we should try a small synchronous wait before returning JUKEBOX. Read delegations shouldn't require the client to do very much, so it could be they're typically returned in a fraction of a second. Since we have a fixed number of threads, I don't think we'd want to keep one waiting much longer than that. Also, it'd be nice if we could get woken up early when the delegation return comes in before our wait's over, but I haven't thought about how to do that. And I don't know if that actually helps. --b. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-nfs" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
