Trond Myklebust wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 14:37 -0400, Peter Staubach wrote:
>
>> Trond Myklebust wrote:
>>
>>> So, how about doing this by modifying balance_dirty_pages() instead?
>>> Limiting pages on a per-inode basis isn't going to solve the common
>>> problem of 'ls -l' performance, where you have to stat a whole bunch of
>>> files, all of which may be dirty. To deal with that case, you really
>>> need an absolute limit on the number of dirty pages.
>>>
>>> Currently, we have only relative limits: a given bdi is allowed a
>>> maximum percentage value of the total write back cache size... We could
>>> add a 'max_pages' field, that specifies an absolute limit at which the
>>> vfs should start writeback.
>>>
>> Interesting thought. From a high level, it sounds like a good
>> strategy. The details start to get a little troubling to me
>> though.
>>
>> First thing that strikes me is that this may result in
>> suboptimal WRITE requests being issued over the wire. If the
>> page quota is filled with many pages from one file and just a
>> few from another due to timing, we may end up issuing small
>> over the wire WRITE requests for the one file, even during
>> normal operations.
>>
>
> balance_dirty_pages() will currently call writeback_inodes() to actually
> flush out the pages. The latter will again check the super block dirty
> list to determine candidate files; it doesn't favour the particular file
> on which we called balance_dirty_pages_ratelimited().
>
>
It doesn't favor any files. It runs on all of them. Without
some more clever smarts, we end up with small over the wire
writes, which are to be avoided if at all possible.
> That said, balance_dirty_pages_ratelimited() does take the mapping as an
> argument. You could, therefore, in theory have it make decisions on a
> per-mapping basis.
>
>
I will have to think about this more. Could you elaborate on
what you were thinking that we might be able to do?
>> We don't want to flush pages in the page cache until an entire
>> wsize'd transfer can be constructed for the specific file.
>> Thus, it seems to me that we still need to track the number of
>> dirty pages per file.
>>
>> We also need to know that those pages are contiguous in the
>> file. We can determine, heuristically, whether the pages are
>> contiguous in the file or not by tracking the access pattern.
>> For random access, we can assume that the pages are not
>> contiguous and we can assume that they are contiguous for
>> sequential access. This isn't perfect and can be fooled,
>> but should hold for most applications which access files
>> sequentially.
>>
>> Also, we don't want to proactively flush the cache if the
>> application is doing random access. The application may come
>> back to the page and we could get away with a single WRITE
>> instead of multiple WRITE requests for the same page. With
>> sequential access, we can generally know that it is safe to
>> proactively flush pages because the application won't be
>> accessing them again. Once again, this heuristic is not
>> foolproof, but holds most of the time.
>>
>
> I'm not sure I follow you here. Why is the random access case any
> different to the sequential access case? Random writes are obviously a
> pain to deal with since you cannot predict access patterns. However,
> AFAICS if we want to provide a faster generic stat(), then we need to
> deal with random writes too: a gigabyte of data will take even longer to
> flush out when it is in the form of non-contiguous writes.
>
>
I think that access patterns are important because we can't solve
the ls performance problem at the expense of ruining all other
performance. During normal operations, ie. without ls running in
the directory, performance should as close to what exists today
as possible, or even better. I think that folks running a
database in a file would probably not be happy with a tradeoff
that makes ls run on the database files run faster while making
the applications which update the database run slower. We have
been busy trying to convince people to run databases on top of
file systems instead of raw partitions and this would hurt.
It would be nice to provide a faster generic stat(). However,
I don't easily see how to do this and it not clear that we
actually have to do this. We do need a faster stat() on files
that are being sequentially written to. We have customer
bugzillas and reports on this already. The people who tend
to run applications which use random access on files tend
to be those who care more about the performance of those
applications than someone running ls.
>> For the ls case, we really want to manage the page cache on a
>> per-directory of files case. I don't think that this is going
>> to happen. The only directions to go from there are more
>> coarse, per-bdi, or less coarse, per-file.
>>
>
> Ugh. No...
>
>
Ugh, indeed. :-)
>> If we go the per-bdi approach, then we would need to stop
>> all modifications to the page cache for that particular bdi
>> during the duration of the ls processing. Otherwise, as we
>> stat 1 file at a time, the other files still needing to be
>> stat'd would just refill the page cache with dirty pages.
>> We could solve this by setting the max_pages limit to be a
>> reasonable number to flush per file, but then that would be
>> too small a limit for the entire file system.
>>
>
> True, but if you have applications writing to all the files in your
> directory, then 'ls -l' performance is likely to suck anyway. Even if
> you do have per-file limits, those write-backs to the other files will
> be competing for RPC slots with the write-backs from the file that is
> being stat()ed.
>
>
There is going to be a cost to running ls in a directory which
contains files which are being actively written to. I don't
see how to avoid this, given the architecture of maintaining
file times by the server and the semantics required. We can
strive to limit the cost though. I think that we can limit
the cost without affecting normal operations.
>> So, I don't see how to get around managing the page cache on
>> a per-file basis, at least to some extent, in order to manage
>> the amount of dirty data that must be flushed.
>>
>> It does seem like the right way to do this is via a combination
>> of per-bdi and per-file support, but I am not sure that we have
>> the right information at the right levels to achieve this now.
>>
>> Thanx...
>>
>> ps
>>
>
> In the long run, I'd like to see us merge something like the fstatat()
> patches that were hacked together at the LSF'09 conference.
> If applications can actually tell the NFS client that they don't care
> about a/c/mtime accuracy, then we can avoid this whole flushing nonsense
> altogether. It would suffice to teach 'ls' to start using the
> AT_NO_TIMES flag that we defined...
Is someone pursuing those patches which were hacked together
at LSF'09? Or, is there a specification or some sort of design
document for the work?
This would help in some cases. Using ls without any arguments
that require file times could certainly be made to run lickety
split. However, we would still be stuck with the crowd that
needed to know file sizes or file times for their own nefarious
reasons. It would be easy to dismiss these folks, until one
becomes a paying support customer with enough clout to demand
that something be done. I, myself, even, fall into this
situation often enough that I wish for the situation to be
addressed.
Thanx...
ps
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