On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:32:10AM +0200, Greg KH wrote: > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 04:32:30PM -0700, Luis Chamberlain wrote: > > > It's not "wasted", as it is returned when the module is determined to be > > > a duplicate. Otherwise everyone will want this enabled as they think it > > > will actually save memory. > > > > I'll change the language to be clear the issue is memory pressure early > > on boot. I'll also add a bit of language to help at least guide people > > to realize that the real value-add for this, ie, I'll have to mention we > > suspect issue is udev and not module auto-loading and that this however > > may still help find a few cases we can optimize for. > > This isn't udev's "problem", all it is doing is what the kernel asked it > to do. The kernel said "Here's a new device I found, load a module for > it please!" If you believe that then the issue is still a kernel issue, and the second part to that sentence "load a module for it" was done without consideration of the implications, or without optimizations in mind. Given the implications were perhaps not well understood it is unfair for us to be hard on ourselves on that. But now we know, ideally if we could we *should* only issue a request for a module *once* during boot. Where does the kernel actually say "load a module"? Isn't that just an implied gesture? > And it's the kmod code here, not udev itself doing all of this. Yes, IMHO kmod could and *should* be enhanced to share a loading context during boot so to avoid duplicates too and then udev would have to embrace such functionality. That's going to take time to propagate, as you can imagine. > Why not > just rate-limit it in userspace if your system can't handle 10's of > thousands of kmod calls all at once? I think many s390 systems did this > decades ago when they were controlling 10's of thousands of scsi devices > and were hit with "device detection storms" at boot like this. Boot is a special context and in this particular case I agree userspace kmod could/should be extended to avoid duplicate module requests in that context. But likewise the kernel should only have to try to issue a request for a single module once, if it could easily do that. This does beg the question, why force userspace to rate limit if we can do better in the kernel? Specially if *we're the ones*, as you say, that are hinting to userspace to shoot back loading modules for us and we know we're just going to drop duplicates? We discussed the possibility to rate limit finit_module() in-kernel [0], but that was early in this process as I investigated the root cause of the duplicates. I didn't feel comfortable with such an approach then but now I have a clearer rationale as to why I felt so uncomfortable with it. Rate limiting can be a a bandaid, a ball park guess and if one can understand the issue a bit better, you may not need to to rate limit. My kludge-of-concept RFC patch which takes the concepts in this patch but applies them to kread [1] is an attempt for us to see what that could look like -- and it goes so far as to survive easily the otherwise pathological stress test of say (assuming you have all deps loaded and don't have XFS loaded for an existing mount already): stress-ng --module 1 --module-name xfs Given Dave's original reported issue should be fixed now by the patch "module: avoid allocation if module is already present and ready", there really is no rush in keeping a kludges around but this does be the question to analyze this case a bit more carefully with the long term in mind. [0] https://lkml.kernel.org/r/CAHk-=wjsBkyD+y_zfif1MXWYEkvPt+TPLdVjP41573oKEOu4qA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [1] https://lore.kernel.org/all/ZDmAvwi+KNvie+OI@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/T/#md172510af8fdf7e0f76f6caafee9c99f7a8b6de7 > If you really think it's the kernel's fault, just slow down the kernel's > device detection code for the specific bus that is having problems. > We've worked hard to make the kernel boot really fast and device > detection happen in parallel, maybe that wasn't a good idea for some > systems and so they need to boot slower. If so, then just turn off the > parallel probing for the offending bus type. I think it is counter productive to do that, it's not like we have not identified the scaling issue or can't solve this. > What specific devices and bus types are the problem here for these systems? My best assessment of the situation is that each CPU in udev ends up triggering a load of duplicate set of modules, not just one, but *a lot*. Not sure what heuristics udev uses to load a set of modules per CPU. Given the slopes of the graphs I have shown on how this scales per CPU [2] we can project at what point in time this will again likely be an issue if we don't avoid the duplicates in userspace through kmod or address dealing with them as in my kludge-of-concept on kreads. Given the secondary vmalloc is dealt with the patch "module: avoid allocation if module is already present and ready" that leaves us only to deal with virtual memory pressure from the kread. In-kernel we may be able to also see if we can use seq reads for the initial kread and decompression. That remains to be seen, but it would also be a way for this not cause possible boot failures. [2] https://lore.kernel.org/all/ZDmAvwi+KNvie+OI@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/T/#mf7f8412c3486f59a3e4cf02b65bf0c4f9ba60ef0 Luis
