On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 12:29:22PM -0400, Dan Streetman wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:35 AM, David Horner <ds2horner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Dan Streetman <ddstreet@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:44 AM, David Horner <ds2horner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Dan Streetman <ddstreet@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 10:51 PM, Minchan Kim <minchan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>> Hey Joonsoo,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:26:11AM +0900, Joonsoo Kim wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello, Minchan and David.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 08:22:29AM -0400, David Horner wrote:
> >>>>>> > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:55 AM, Minchan Kim <minchan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>> > > Hey Joonsoo,
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 04:37:30PM +0900, Joonsoo Kim wrote:
> >>>>>> > >> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:05:55AM +0900, Minchan Kim wrote:
> >>>>>> > >> > @@ -513,6 +540,14 @@ static int zram_bvec_write(struct zram *zram, struct bio_vec *bvec, u32 index,
> >>>>>> > >> > ret = -ENOMEM;
> >>>>>> > >> > goto out;
> >>>>>> > >> > }
> >>>>>> > >> > +
> >>>>>> > >> > + if (zram->limit_pages &&
> >>>>>> > >> > + zs_get_total_pages(meta->mem_pool) > zram->limit_pages) {
> >>>>>> > >> > + zs_free(meta->mem_pool, handle);
> >>>>>> > >> > + ret = -ENOMEM;
> >>>>>> > >> > + goto out;
> >>>>>> > >> > + }
> >>>>>> > >> > +
> >>>>>> > >> > cmem = zs_map_object(meta->mem_pool, handle, ZS_MM_WO);
> >>>>>> > >>
> >>>>>> > >> Hello,
> >>>>>> > >>
> >>>>>> > >> I don't follow up previous discussion, so I could be wrong.
> >>>>>> > >> Why this enforcement should be here?
> >>>>>> > >>
> >>>>>> > >> I think that this has two problems.
> >>>>>> > >> 1) alloc/free happens unnecessarilly if we have used memory over the
> >>>>>> > >> limitation.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > True but firstly, I implemented the logic in zsmalloc, not zram but
> >>>>>> > > as I described in cover-letter, it's not a requirement of zsmalloc
> >>>>>> > > but zram so it should be in there. If every user want it in future,
> >>>>>> > > then we could move the function into zsmalloc. That's what we
> >>>>>> > > concluded in previous discussion.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hmm...
> >>>>>> Problem is that we can't avoid these unnecessary overhead in this
> >>>>>> implementation. If we can implement this feature in zram efficiently,
> >>>>>> it's okay. But, I think that current form isn't.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If we can add it in zsmalloc, it would be more clean and efficient
> >>>>> for zram but as I said, at the moment, I didn't want to put zram's
> >>>>> requirement into zsmalloc because to me, it's weird to enforce max
> >>>>> limit to allocator. It's client's role, I think.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If current implementation is expensive and rather hard to follow,
> >>>>> It would be one reason to move the feature into zsmalloc but
> >>>>> I don't think it makes critical trobule in zram usecase.
> >>>>> See below.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But I still open and will wait others's opinion.
> >>>>> If other guys think zsmalloc is better place, I am willing to move
> >>>>> it into zsmalloc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Moving it into zsmalloc would allow rejecting new zsmallocs before
> >>>> actually crossing the limit, since it can calculate that internally.
> >>>> However, with the current patches the limit will only be briefly
> >>>> crossed, and it should not be crossed by a large amount. Now, if this
> >>>> is happening repeatedly and quickly during extreme memory pressure,
> >>>> the constant alloc/free will clearly be worse than a simple internal
> >>>> calculation and failure. But would it ever happen repeatedly once the
> >>>> zram limit is reached?
> >>>>
> >>>> Now that I'm thinking about the limit from the perspective of the zram
> >>>> user, I wonder what really will happen. If zram is being used for
> >>>> swap space, then when swap starts getting errors trying to write
> >>>> pages, how damaging will that be to the system? I haven't checked
> >>>> what swap does when it encounters disk errors. Of course, with no
> >>>> zram limit, continually writing to zram until memory is totally
> >>>> consumed isn't good either. But in any case, I would hope that swap
> >>>> would not repeatedly hammer on a disk when it's getting write failures
> >>>> from it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Alternately, if zram was being used as a compressed ram disk for
> >>>> regular file storage, it's entirely up to the application to handle
> >>>> write failures, so it may continue to try to write to a full zram
> >>>> disk.
> >>>>
> >>>> As far as what the zsmalloc api would look like with the limit added,
> >>>> it would need a setter and getter function (adding it as a param to
> >>>> the create function would be optional i think). But more importantly,
> >>>> it would need to handle multiple ways of specifying the limit. In our
> >>>> specific current use cases, zram and zswap, each handles their
> >>>> internal limit differently - zswap currently uses a % of total ram as
> >>>> its limit (defaulting to 20), while with these patches zram will use a
> >>>> specific number of bytes as its limit (defaulting to no limit). If
> >>>> the limiting mechanism is moved into zsmalloc (and possibly zbud),
> >>>> then either both users need to use the same units (bytes or %ram), or
> >>>> zsmalloc/zbud need to be able to set their limit in either units. It
> >>>> seems to me like keeping the limit in zram/zswap is currently
> >>>> preferable, at least without both using the same limit units.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> zswap knows what 20% (or whatever % it currently uses , and perhaps it too
> >>> will become a tuning knob) of memory is in bytes.
> >>>
> >>> So, if the interface to establish a limit for a pool (or pool set, or whatever
> >>> zsmalloc sets up for its allocation mechanism) is stipulated in bytes
> >>> (to actually use pages internally, of visa-versa) , then both can use
> >>> that interface.
> >>> zram with its native page stipulation, and zswap with calculated % of memory).
> >>
> >> No, unless zswap monitors memory hotplug and updates the limit on each
> >> hotplug event, 20% of the *current* total ram at zswap initialization
> >> is not equal to an actual 20% of ram limit. zswap checks its size
> >> against totalram_pages for each new allocation. I don't think we would
> >> prefer adding memory hotplug monitoring to zswap just to update the
> >> zpool size limit.
> >>
> >
> > OK - I see the need to retain the limits where they are in the using
> > components so that
> > zsmalloc is not unnecessarily complicated (keeping track of 2 limit methods).
> >
> > So, zswap has the same race conditions and possible transient over-allocations?
> > It looks like I will have to check on how zswap implements it.
> > But perhaps you can answer the question that is not in the code:
> > Have there been reported thrashing behaviour around the 20% limit for zswap?
>
> zswap does a simple over-allocation check before allocating anything.
> So during page store, it checks if (total_ram * 0.20) < used. This
> actually places the effective limit higher than the specified limit,
> but only by a single allocation. This approach could be taken with
> zram as well.
>
> The amount of over-allocation (past the specified limit) would vary
> between zsmalloc and zbud. Since zbud increases itself in page
> increments, any over-allocation past the zswap limit would be by only
> 1 page. However, zsmalloc is variable in its allocation increments,
> as it depends on which class needs to be grown; zsmalloc is divided
> into many "classes", each of contains some number of "zspages" which
> try to precisely contain some number of N-sized areas; e.g. one class
> might use zspages that are 2 pages to store 3 separate areas which are
> each 2/3 of a page number of bytes; if that class needed to be grown,
> it would add one zspage that is 2 pages. The max number of actual
> pages per zspage is defined by ZS_MAX_PAGES_PER_ZSPAGE which is
> currently set to 1<<2, so 4.
> So with zswap, it will over-allocate memory past its specified limit,
> up to 1 page (with zbud) or up to 4 pages (with zsmalloc). zram could
> do the same, simply check if its size > limit before each write, and
> fail if so; that would remove the alloc/free issue, and would only
> over-allocate by at most 4 pages (with the current zsmalloc settings).
> Alternately, zram could check if its (current_size + 4pages > limit),
> which would then stop it short of the limit by up to 4 pages. Really
> though, 4 pages either above or under the limit probably doesn't
> matter.
It's doable but the problem is that it expose allocator's internal
(ie, zsmalloc allocates page up to 4) and that's thing I wanted to
avoid from the beginning.
If anyone says alloc/free cost is really high with breaking
my expectation, we could consider it as one of solution.
>
> >
> > thanks.
> >
> >>>
> >>> Both would need a mechanism to change the max as need change,
> >>> so the API has to handle this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Or am I way off base?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > Another idea is we could call zs_get_total_pages right before zs_malloc
> >>>>>> > > but the problem is we cannot know how many of pages are allocated
> >>>>>> > > by zsmalloc in advance.
> >>>>>> > > IOW, zram should be blind on zsmalloc's internal.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > We did however suggest that we could check before hand to see if
> >>>>>> > max was already exceeded as an optimization.
> >>>>>> > (possibly with a guess on usage but at least using the minimum of 1 page)
> >>>>>> > In the contested case, the max may already be exceeded transiently and
> >>>>>> > therefore we know this one _could_ fail (it could also pass, but odds
> >>>>>> > aren't good).
> >>>>>> > As Minchan mentions this was discussed before - but not into great detail.
> >>>>>> > Testing should be done to determine possible benefit. And as he also
> >>>>>> > mentions, the better place for it may be in zsmalloc, but that
> >>>>>> > requires an ABI change.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why we hesitate to change zsmalloc API? It is in-kernel API and there
> >>>>>> are just two users now, zswap and zram. We can change it easily.
> >>>>>> I think that we just need following simple API change in zsmalloc.c.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> zs_zpool_create(gfp_t gfp, struct zpool_ops *zpool_op)
> >>>>>> =>
> >>>>>> zs_zpool_create(unsigned long limit, gfp_t gfp, struct zpool_ops
> >>>>>> *zpool_op)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's pool allocator so there is no obstacle for us to limit maximum
> >>>>>> memory usage in zsmalloc. It's a natural idea to limit memory usage
> >>>>>> for pool allocator.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> > Certainly a detailed suggestion could happen on this thread and I'm
> >>>>>> > also interested
> >>>>>> > in your thoughts, but this patchset should be able to go in as is.
> >>>>>> > Memory exhaustion avoidance probably trumps the possible thrashing at
> >>>>>> > threshold.
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > > About alloc/free cost once if it is over the limit,
> >>>>>> > > I don't think it's important to consider.
> >>>>>> > > Do you have any scenario in your mind to consider alloc/free cost
> >>>>>> > > when the limit is over?
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > >> 2) Even if this request doesn't do new allocation, it could be failed
> >>>>>> > >> due to other's allocation. There is time gap between allocation and
> >>>>>> > >> free, so legimate user who want to use preallocated zsmalloc memory
> >>>>>> > >> could also see this condition true and then he will be failed.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > Yeb, we already discussed that. :)
> >>>>>> > > Such false positive shouldn't be a severe problem if we can keep a
> >>>>>> > > promise that zram user cannot exceed mem_limit.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If we can keep such a promise, why we need to limit memory usage?
> >>>>>> I guess that this limit feature is useful for user who can't keep such promise.
> >>>>>> So, we should assume that this false positive happens frequently.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The goal is to limit memory usage within some threshold.
> >>>>> so false positive shouldn't be harmful unless it exceeds the threshold.
> >>>>> In addition, If such false positive happens frequently, it means
> >>>>> zram is very trobule so that user would see lots of write fail
> >>>>> message, sometime really slow system if zram is used for swap.
> >>>>> If we protect just one write from the race, how much does it help
> >>>>> this situation? I don't think it's critical problem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> > And we cannot avoid the race, nor can we avoid in a low overhead competitive
> >>>>>> > concurrent process transient inconsistent states.
> >>>>>> > Different views for different observers.
> >>>>>> > They are a consequence of the theory of "Special Computational Relativity".
> >>>>>> > I am working on a String Unification Theory of Quantum and General CR in LISP.
> >>>>>> > ;-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If we move limit logic to zsmalloc, we can avoid the race by commiting
> >>>>>> needed memory size before actual allocation attempt. This commiting makes
> >>>>>> concurrent process serialized so there is no race here. There is
> >>>>>> possibilty to fail to allocate, but I think this is better than alloc
> >>>>>> and free blindlessly depending on inconsistent states.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Normally, zsmalloc/zsfree allocates object from existing pool so
> >>>>> it's not big overhead and if someone continue to try writing once limit is
> >>>>> full, another overhead (vfs, fs, block) would be bigger than zsmalloc
> >>>>> so it's not a problem, I think.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in
> >>>>>> the body to majordomo@xxxxxxxxx. For more info on Linux MM,
> >>>>>> see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ .
> >>>>>> Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@xxxxxxxxx";> email@xxxxxxxxx </a>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Kind regards,
> >>>>> Minchan Kim
>
> --
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--
Kind regards,
Minchan Kim
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