On Tue 03-12-13 15:17:13, Johannes Weiner wrote: > On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 01:04:54PM +0100, Michal Hocko wrote: > > On Mon 02-12-13 16:25:00, Johannes Weiner wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 09:02:21PM +0100, Michal Hocko wrote: > > [...] > > > > But we are not talking just about races here. What if the OOM is a > > > > result of an OOM action itself. E.g. a killed task faults a memory in > > > > while exiting and it hasn't freed its memory yet. Should we notify in > > > > such a case? What would an userspace OOM handler do (the in-kernel > > > > implementation has an advantage because it can check the tasks flags)? > > > > > > We don't notify in such a case. Every charge from a TIF_MEMDIE or > > > exiting task is bypassing the limit immediately. Not even reclaim. > > > > Not really. Assume a memcg is under OOM. A task is killed by > > userspace so we get into signal delivery code which clears > > fatal_signal_pending and the code goes on to exit but then it faults in. > > __mem_cgroup_try_charge will not see signal pending and TIF_MEMDIE is > > not set yet. OOM is still not resolved so we are back to square one. > > Ah, that's a completely separate problem, though. One issue I have > with these checks is that I never know which one are shortcuts and > micro optimizations and which one are functionally necessary. That is why I asked for the changelog update to mention the fix as well (https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/11/18/161 resp. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/11/18/142) > > > > > So again, I don't see this patch is doing anything but blur the > > > > > current line and make notification less predictable. And, as someone > > > > > else in this thread already said, it's a uservisible change in > > > > > behavior and would break known tuning usecases. > > > > > > > > I would like to understand how would such a tuning usecase work and how > > > > it would break with this change. > > > > > > I would do test runs and with every run increase the size of the > > > workload until I get OOM notifications to know when the kernel has > > > been pushed beyond its limits and available memory + reclaim > > > capability can't keep up with the workload anymore. > > > > > > Not informing me just because due to timing variance a random process > > > exits in the last moment would be flat out lying. The machine is OOM. > > > Many reclaim cycles failing is a good predictor. Last minute exit of > > > random task is not, it's happenstance and I don't want to rely on a > > > fluke like this to size my workload. > > > > Such a metric would be inherently racy for the same reason. You simply > > cannot rely on not seeing OOMs because an exiting task managed to leave > > in time (after MEM_CGROUP_RECLAIM_RETRIES direct reclaim loops and > > before mem_cgroup_oom). Difference between in time and little bit too > > late is just too fragile to be useful IMO. > > Are we saying the same thing? Or did I misunderstand you? yes we are and my point was that using such a metric doesn't make much sense. So arguing with reliability and possible regressions is a bit over-reaction. I was backing this patch because it has moved the check to a more appropriate place where it actually solves also another issue. I was probably not clear enough about that. > > > > Consider the above example. You would get 2 notification for the very > > > > same OOM condition. > > > > On the other hand if the encountered exiting task was just a race then > > > > we have two options basically. Either there are more tasks racing (and > > > > not all of them are exiting) or there is only one (all are exiting). > > > > We will not loose any notification in the first case because the flags > > > > are checked before mem_cgroup_oom_trylock and so one of tasks would lock > > > > and notify. > > > > The second case is more interesting. Userspace won't get notification > > > > but we also know that no action is required as the OOM will be resolved > > > > by itself. And now we should consider whether notification would do more > > > > good than harm. The tuning usecase would loose one event. Would such a > > > > rare situation skew the statistics so much? On the other hand a real OOM > > > > killer would do something which means something will be killed. I find > > > > the later much worse. > > > > > > We already check in various places (sigh) for whether reclaim and > > > killing is still necessary. What is the end game here? An endless > > > loop right before the kill where we check if the kill is still > > > necessary? > > > > The patch as is doesn't cover all the cases and ideally we should check > > that for OOM_SCAN_ABORT and later in oom_kill_process because they can > > back out as well if we want to have only-on-action notification. Such a > > solution would be too messy though. > > There is never an only-on-action notification and there is no check to > cover all cases. This is the fallacy I'm trying to point out. All we > can do is pick a fairly predictable line and stick to it. Yes, nothing will be 100% but drawing the line at the place where the kernel is going to _do_ something sounds like a quite a clear cut to me and a reasonable semantic. That something might be either killing something or putting somebody to sleep and wait for the userspace. That would be an ideal semantic IMHO. The code doesn't allow us to do so now unfortunately (without too much refactoring). > > But as I've said. The primary reason I liked this change is because it > > solves the above mentioned OOM during exit issue and it also prevents > > from a pointless notification. I am perfectly fine with moving the > > check+set TIF_MEMDIE down so solve only the issue #1 and do not mess > > with notifications. > > The notification is not pointless, we are OOM at the time we make the > decision. We have clearly different opinions here. I do not consider temporal OOM conditions as significant enough. As the OOM itself is really hard to define and to be _agreed_ on I think we should be as practical as possible and provide the oom notification interface as comfortable to users as possible. And then we should balance cons and pros of notifying. I am still convinced that notifying less is better in general because I see OOM killer use cases. > > > You're not fixing this problem, so why make the notifications less > > > reliable? > > > > I am still not seeing why it is less reliable. The notification is > > inherently racy so you cannot rely on any simple metrics based on their > > count (at least not in general). > > It should be based on reclaim failing, which is more predictable and > reproducible across multiple runs. Anything else is just random > coincidence, I can't fathom why you think that it's at all meaningful. If you are interested in reclaim failing then failcnt is a much better metric for you. That's all that I am saying. > You could do one more reclaim cycle and a charge attempt, or even just > add an msleep() between the last reclaim cycle and the last charge > attempt for exactly the same outcome. > > > > > So all in all. I do agree with you that this path will never be race > > > > free and without pointless OOM actions. I also agree that drawing the > > > > line is hard. But I am more inclined to prevent from notification when > > > > we already know that _no action_ is required because IMHO the vast > > > > majority of oom listeners are there to _do_ an action which is mostly > > > > deadly. > > > > > > If you want to push the machine so hard that active measures like > > > reclaim can't keep up and you rely on stupid timing like this to save > > > your sorry butt, then you'll just have to live with the > > > unpredictability of it. You're going to eat kills that might have > > > been avoided last minute either way. It's no excuse to plaster the MM > > > with TIF_MEMDIE checks and last-minute cgroup margin checks in the > > > weirdest locations. > > > > Yes I do not agree with putting TIF_MEMDIE checks all over the place and > > we should reduce their number to minimum. It is fair to say that the > > patch didn't add a new check. It just has moved it to cover both > > in-kernel and user space oom paths. That was a bonus I liked. To be > > honest I do not see the notification side effect as a big deal as those > > are racy anyway and I would rather see fewer of them than more > > (especially when it is clear that nothing is to be done). > > I don't know why we have this check there in the first place, it > should be part of the OOM victim selection process and not a hacky > shortcut in memcg. It's a blatant layering violation for no obvious > reason. My understanding is that it tries to expedite the process. Scanning tasks might be quite expensive. Sure, you would find a task and abort scanning as well but that might be after zillions of tasks scanned. > > > Again, how likely is it anyway that the kill was truly skipped and not > > > just deferred? Reclaim failing is a good indicator that you're in > > > trouble, a random task exiting in an ongoing workload does not say > > > much. The machine could still be in trouble, so you just deferred the > > > inevitable, you didn't really avoid a kill. > > > > > > At this point we are talking about OOM kill frequency and statistical > > > probability during apparently normal operations. The OOM killer was > > > never written for that, it was supposed to be a last minute resort > > > that should not occur during normal operations and only if all SANE > > > measures to avoid it have failed. 99% of all users have no interest > > > in these micro-optimizations and we shouldn't clutter the code and > > > have unpredictable behavior without even a trace of data to show that > > > this is anything more than a placebo measure for one use case. > > > > OK, as it seems that the notification part is too controversial, how > > would you like the following? It reverts the notification part and still > > solves the fault on exit path. I will prepare the full patch with the > > changelog if this looks reasonable: > > --- > > diff --git a/mm/memcontrol.c b/mm/memcontrol.c > > index 28c9221b74ea..f44fe7e65a98 100644 > > --- a/mm/memcontrol.c > > +++ b/mm/memcontrol.c > > @@ -1783,6 +1783,16 @@ static void mem_cgroup_out_of_memory(struct mem_cgroup *memcg, gfp_t gfp_mask, > > unsigned int points = 0; > > struct task_struct *chosen = NULL; > > > > + /* > > + * If current has a pending SIGKILL or is exiting, then automatically > > + * select it. The goal is to allow it to allocate so that it may > > + * quickly exit and free its memory. > > + */ > > + if (fatal_signal_pending(current) || current->flags & PF_EXITING) { > > + set_thread_flag(TIF_MEMDIE); > > + goto cleanup; > > return; > > Anyway, I wish this would not be here at all and part of the thread > scanner. As David said, this is a very cold path, why the shortcut? Right. I would rather go and drop the original patch as we couldn't find an agreement so the partial revert wouldn't be needed. This was just an illustration. > > @@ -2233,16 +2243,6 @@ bool mem_cgroup_oom_synchronize(bool handle) > > if (!handle) > > goto cleanup; > > > > - /* > > - * If current has a pending SIGKILL or is exiting, then automatically > > - * select it. The goal is to allow it to allocate so that it may > > - * quickly exit and free its memory. > > - */ > > - if (fatal_signal_pending(current) || current->flags & PF_EXITING) { > > - set_thread_flag(TIF_MEMDIE); > > - goto cleanup; > > - } > > - > > owait.memcg = memcg; > > owait.wait.flags = 0; > > owait.wait.func = memcg_oom_wake_function; > > @@ -2266,6 +2266,13 @@ bool mem_cgroup_oom_synchronize(bool handle) > > schedule(); > > mem_cgroup_unmark_under_oom(memcg); > > finish_wait(&memcg_oom_waitq, &owait.wait); > > + > > + /* Userspace OOM handler cannot set TIF_MEMDIE to a target */ > > + if (memcg->oom_kill_disable) { > > + if ((fatal_signal_pending(current) || > > + current->flags & PF_EXITING)) > > + set_thread_flag(TIF_MEMDIE); > > + } > > This is an entirely different change that I think makes sense. OK, I will post the full patch after we settle with this one finally. -- Michal Hocko SUSE Labs -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@xxxxxxxxx. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@xxxxxxxxx";> email@xxxxxxxxx </a>