Hi Peter, Linus, On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:09:02PM +0000, Peter Zijlstra wrote: > On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:39:53PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Linus Torvalds > > <torvalds@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > And as far as I can tell, the above gives you: A < B < C < D < E < F < > > > A. Which doesn't look possible. > > > > Hmm.. I guess technically all of those cases aren't "strictly > > precedes" as much as "cannot have happened in the opposite order". So > > the "<" might be "<=". Which I guess *is* possible: "it all happened > > at the same time". And then the difference between your suggested > > "lwsync" and "sync" in the unlock path on CPU0 basically approximating > > the difference between "A <= B" and "A < B".. > > > > Ho humm. > > But remember, there's an actual full proper barrier between E and F, so > at best you'd end up with something like: > > A <= B <= C <= D <= E < F <= A > > Which is still an impossibility. > > I'm hoping others will explain things, as I'm very much on shaky ground > myself wrt transitivity. The transitivity issues come about by having multiple, valid copies of the same data at a given moment in time (hence the term `multi-copy atomicity', where all of these copies appear to be updated at once). Now, I'm not familiar with the Power memory model and the implementation intricacies between lwsync and sync, but I think a better way to think about this is to think of the cacheline state changes being broadcast as asynchronous requests, rather than necessarily responding to snoops from a canonical source. So, in Paul's example, the upgrade requests on X and lock (shared -> invalid) may have reached CPU1, but not CPU2 by the time CPU2 reads X and therefore reads 0 from its shared line. It really depends on the multi-copy semantics you give to the different barrier instructions. The other thing worth noting is that exclusive access instructions (e.g. ldrex and strex on ARM) may interact differently with barriers than conventional accesses, so lighter weight barriers can sometimes be acceptable for things like locks and atomics. Does that help at all? Will -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@xxxxxxxxx. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@xxxxxxxxx";> email@xxxxxxxxx </a>