On Wed Jan 22, 2025 at 3:11 AM EST, David Hildenbrand wrote:
> On 22.01.25 03:24, Zi Yan wrote:
>> On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 9:08 PM EST, Juan Yescas wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 9:59 AM David Hildenbrand <david@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 20.01.25 16:29, Zi Yan wrote:
>>>>> On Mon Jan 20, 2025 at 3:14 AM EST, David Hildenbrand wrote:
>>>>>> On 20.01.25 01:39, Zi Yan wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun Jan 19, 2025 at 6:55 PM EST, Barry Song wrote:
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, with this workaround, we can't use transparent huge pages.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is the CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES requirement alignment only to support huge pages?
>>>>>>>>> No. CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES is limited by CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_PAGES, which
>>>>>>>>> is equal to pageblock size. Enabling THP just bumps the pageblock size.
>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, I can see the initialization in include/linux/pageblock-flags.h
>>>
>>> #define pageblock_order MIN_T(unsigned int, HUGETLB_PAGE_ORDER, MAX_PAGE_ORDER)
>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently, THP might be mTHP, which can have a significantly smaller
>>>>>>>> size than 32MB. For
>>>>>>>> example, on arm64 systems with a 16KiB page size, a 2MB CONT-PTE mTHP
>>>>>>>> is possible.
>>>>>>>> Additionally, mTHP relies on the CONFIG_TRANSPARENT_HUGEPAGE configuration.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder if it's possible to enable CONFIG_TRANSPARENT_HUGEPAGE
>>>>>>>> without necessarily
>>>>>>>> using 32MiB THP. If we use other sizes, such as 64KiB, perhaps a large
>>>>>>>> pageblock size wouldn't
>>>>>>>> be necessary?
>>>
>>> Do you mean with mTHP? We haven't explored that option.
>>
>> Yes. Unless your applications have special demands for PMD THPs. 2MB
>> mTHP should work.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think this should work by reducing MAX_PAGE_ORDER like Juan did for
>>>>>>> the experiment. But MAX_PAGE_ORDER is a macro right now, Kconfig needs
>>>>>>> to be changed and kernel needs to be recompiled. Not sure if it is OK
>>>>>>> for Juan's use case.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>> The main goal is to reserve only the necessary CMA memory for the
>>> drivers, which is
>>> usually the same for 4kb and 16kb page size kernels.
>>
>> Got it. Based on your experiment, you changed MAX_PAGE_ORDER to get the
>> minimal CMA alignment size. Can you deploy that kernel to production?
>> If yes, you can use mTHP instead of PMD THP and still get the CMA
>> alignemnt you want.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, we set pageblock size == THP size because this is the granularity
>>>>>> we want to optimize defragmentation for. ("try keep pageblock
>>>>>> granularity of the same memory type: movable vs. unmovable")
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. In past, it is optimized for PMD THP. Now we have mTHP. If user
>>>>> does not care about PMD THP (32MB in ARM64 16KB base page case) and mTHP
>>>>> (2MB mTHP here) is good enough, reducing pageblock size works.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, the buddy already supports having different pagetypes for large
>>>>>> allocations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. To be clear, only MIGRATE_UNMOVABLE, MIGRATE_RECLAIMABLE, and
>>>>> MIGRATE_MOVABLE can be merged.
>>>>
>>>> Yes! An a THP cannot span partial MIGRATE_CMA, which would be fine.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we could leave MAX_ORDER alone and try adjusting the pageblock size
>>>>>> in these setups. pageblock size is already variable on some
>>>>>> architectures IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Which values would work for the CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES macro? In the
>>> 16KiB page size kernel,
>>> I tried these 2 configurations:
>>>
>>> #define CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES (2048 * CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_PAGES)
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> #define CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES (4096 * CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_PAGES)
>>>
>>> with both of them, the kernel failed to boot.
>>
>> CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES needs to be PAGE_SIZE * CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_PAGES.
>> So you need to adjust CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_PAGES, which is set by pageblock
>> size. pageblock size is determined by pageblock order, which is
>> affected by MAX_PAGE_ORDER.
>
> Yes, most importantly we must not exceed MAX_PAGE_ORDER. Going smaller
> is the common case.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>> Making pageblock size a boot time variable? We might want to warn
>>>>> sysadmin/user that >pageblock_order THP/mTHP creation will suffer.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, some way to configure it.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'd only have to check if all of the THP logic can deal with pageblock
>>>>>> size < THP size.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> The reason that THP was disabled in my experiment is because this
>>> assertion failed
>>>
>>> mm/huge_memory.c
>>> /*
>>> * hugepages can't be allocated by the buddy allocator
>>> */
>>> MAYBE_BUILD_BUG_ON(HPAGE_PMD_ORDER > MAX_PAGE_ORDER);
>>>
>>> when
>>>
>>> config ARCH_FORCE_MAX_ORDER
>>> int
>>> .....
>>> default "8" if ARM64_16K_PAGES
>>>
>>
>> You can remove that BUILD_BUG_ON and turn on mTHP and see if mTHP works.
>>
>>>
>>>>> Probably yes, pageblock should be independent of THP logic, although
>>>>> compaction (used to create THPs) logic is based on pageblock.
>>>>
>>>> Right. As raised in the past, we need a higher level mechanism that
>>>> tries to group pageblocks together during comapction/conversion to limit
>>>> fragmentation on a higher level.
>>>>
>>>> I assume that many use cases would be fine with not using 32MB/512MB
>>>> THPs at all for now -- and instead using 2 MB ones. Of course, for very
>>>> large installations it might be different.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This issue is even more severe on arm64 with 64k (pageblock = 512MiB).
>>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree, and if ARCH_FORCE_MAX_ORDER is configured to the max value we get:
>>>
>>> PAGE_SIZE | max MAX_PAGE_ORDER | CMA_MIN_ALIGNMENT_BYTES
>>> 4KiB | 15 | 4KiB
>>> * 32KiB = 128MiB
>>> 16KiB | 13 | 16KiB
>>> * 8KiB = 128MiB
>>> 64KiB | 13 | 64KiB
>>> * 8KiB = 512MiB
>>>
>>>>> This is also good for virtio-mem, since the offline memory block size
>>>>> can also be reduced. I remember you complained about it before.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, yes, yes! :)
>>>>
>>
>> David's proposal should work in general, but will might take non-trivial
>> amount of work:
>>
>> 1. keep pageblock size always at 4MB for all arch.
>
> My proposal was to leave it unchanged for most archs, but allow for
> overriding it on aarch64 as a first step.
Got it. Makes sense.
>
> s390x is happy with 1MiB, x86 with 2MiB. It's aarch64 that does
> questionable things :)
>
> CONFIG_HUGETLB_PAGE_SIZE_VARIABLE already allows for variable
> pageblock_order. That whole code likely needs some love, but most of it
> should already be there.
>
>
> In the future, I could imagine just going for a smaller pageblock size
> on aarch64, and handling fragmentation avoidance for larger THPs (512
> MiB really is close to 1 GiB on x86) differently, not using pageblocks.
Right. That is what I meant by "...compaction, to work on a different
range, independent of pageblock". But based on Juan's reply[1], 32MB PMD
THP is still needed for the deployment. That means "the future" needs to
be done to fully satisfy Juan's needs. :)
--
Best Regards,
Yan, Zi
