Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 6:51 PM Huang, Ying <ying.huang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:20 PM Huang, Ying <ying.huang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:44 PM Huang, Ying <ying.huang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 10:51 AM Huang, Ying <ying.huang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > The configuration parameter PCP_BATCH_SCALE_MAX poses challenges for
>> >> >> >> > quickly experimenting with specific workloads in a production environment,
>> >> >> >> > particularly when monitoring latency spikes caused by contention on the
>> >> >> >> > zone->lock. To address this, a new sysctl parameter vm.pcp_batch_scale_max
>> >> >> >> > is introduced as a more practical alternative.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In general, I'm neutral to the change. I can understand that kernel
>> >> >> >> configuration isn't as flexible as sysctl knob. But, sysctl knob is ABI
>> >> >> >> too.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > To ultimately mitigate the zone->lock contention issue, several suggestions
>> >> >> >> > have been proposed. One approach involves dividing large zones into multi
>> >> >> >> > smaller zones, as suggested by Matthew[0], while another entails splitting
>> >> >> >> > the zone->lock using a mechanism similar to memory arenas and shifting away
>> >> >> >> > from relying solely on zone_id to identify the range of free lists a
>> >> >> >> > particular page belongs to[1]. However, implementing these solutions is
>> >> >> >> > likely to necessitate a more extended development effort.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Per my understanding, the change will hurt instead of improve zone->lock
>> >> >> >> contention. Instead, it will reduce page allocation/freeing latency.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I'm quite perplexed by your recent comment. You introduced a
>> >> >> > configuration that has proven to be difficult to use, and you have
>> >> >> > been resistant to suggestions for modifying it to a more user-friendly
>> >> >> > and practical tuning approach. May I inquire about the rationale
>> >> >> > behind introducing this configuration in the beginning?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sorry, I don't understand your words. Do you need me to explain what is
>> >> >> "neutral"?
>> >> >
>> >> > No, thanks.
>> >> > After consulting with ChatGPT, I received a clear and comprehensive
>> >> > explanation of what "neutral" means, providing me with a better
>> >> > understanding of the concept.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, can you explain why you introduced it as a config in the beginning ?
>> >>
>> >> I think that I have explained it in the commit log of commit
>> >> 52166607ecc9 ("mm: restrict the pcp batch scale factor to avoid too long
>> >> latency"). Which introduces the config.
>> >
>> > What specifically are your expectations for how users should utilize
>> > this config in real production workload?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Sysctl knob is ABI, which needs to be maintained forever. Can you
>> >> explain why you need it? Why cannot you use a fixed value after initial
>> >> experiments.
>> >
>> > Given the extensive scale of our production environment, with hundreds
>> > of thousands of servers, it begs the question: how do you propose we
>> > efficiently manage the various workloads that remain unaffected by the
>> > sysctl change implemented on just a few thousand servers? Is it
>> > feasible to expect us to recompile and release a new kernel for every
>> > instance where the default value falls short? Surely, there must be
>> > more practical and efficient approaches we can explore together to
>> > ensure optimal performance across all workloads.
>> >
>> > When making improvements or modifications, kindly ensure that they are
>> > not solely confined to a test or lab environment. It's vital to also
>> > consider the needs and requirements of our actual users, along with
>> > the diverse workloads they encounter in their daily operations.
>>
>> Have you found that your different systems requires different
>> CONFIG_PCP_BATCH_SCALE_MAX value already?
>
> For specific workloads that introduce latency, we set the value to 0.
> For other workloads, we keep it unchanged until we determine that the
> default value is also suboptimal. What is the issue with this
> approach?
Firstly, this is a system wide configuration, not workload specific.
So, other workloads run on the same system will be impacted too. Will
you run one workload only on one system?
Secondly, we need some evidences to introduce a new system ABI. For
example, we need to use different configuration on different systems
otherwise some workloads will be hurt. Can you provide some evidences
to support your change? IMHO, it's not good enough to say I don't know
why I just don't want to change existing systems. If so, it may be
better to wait until you have more evidences.
>> If no, I think that it's
>> better for you to keep this patch in your downstream kernel for now.
>> When you find that it is a common requirement, we can evaluate whether
>> to make it a sysctl knob.
--
Best Regards,
Huang, Ying
