On Friday 21 September 2012 11:33:24 Hans Verkuil wrote:
> On Thu September 20 2012 22:21:22 Sakari Ailus wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> >
> > This RFC intends to summarise and further the recent discussion on
> > linux-media regarding the proposed changes of timestamping V4L2 buffers.
> >
> >
> > The problem
> > ===========
> >
> > The V4L2 has long used realtime timestamps (such as
> > clock_gettime(CLOCK_REALTIME, ...)) to stamp the video buffers before
> > handing them over to the user. This has been found problematic in
> > associating the video buffers with data from other sources: realtime clock
> > may jump around due to daylight saving time, for example, and ALSA
> > (audio-video synchronisation is a common use case) user space API does not
> > provide the user with realtime timestamps, but instead uses monotonic time
> > (i.e. clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, ...)).
> >
> > This is especially an issue in embedded systems where video recording is a
> > common use case. Drivers typically used in such systems have silently
> > switched to use monotonic timestamps. While against the spec, this is
> > necessary for those systems to operate properly.
> >
> > In general, realtime timestamps are seen of little use in other than
> > debugging purposes, but monotonic timestamps are fine for that as well.
> > It's still possible that an application I'm not aware of uses them in a
> > peculiar way that would be adversely affected by changing to monotonic
> > timestamps. Nevertheless, we're not supposed to break the API (or ABI).
> > It'd be also very important for the application to know what kind of
> > timestamps are provided by the device.
> >
> >
> > Requirements, wishes and constraints
> > ====================================
> >
> > Now that it seems to be about the time to fix these issues, it's worth
> > looking a little bit to the future to anticipate the coming changes to be
> > able to accommodate them better later on.
> >
> > - The new default should be monotonic. As the monotonic timestamps are
> > seen
> > to be the most useful, they should be made the default.
> >
> > - timeval vs. timespec. The two structs can be used to store timestamp
> > information. They are not compatible with each other. It's a little bit
> > uncertain what's the case with all the architectures but it looks like the
> > timespec fits into the space of timeval in all cases. If timespec is
> > considered to be used somewhere the compatibility must be ensured.
> > Timespec
> > is better than timeval since timespec has more precision and it's the same
> > struct that's used everywhere else in the V4L2 API: timespec does not need
> > conversion to timespec in the user space.
> >
> > struct timespec {
> >
> > __kernel_time_t tv_sec; /* seconds */
> > long tv_nsec; /* nanoseconds */
> >
> > };
> >
> > struct timeval {
> >
> > __kernel_time_t tv_sec; /* seconds */
> > __kernel_suseconds_t tv_usec; /* microseconds */
> >
> > };
> >
> > To be able to use timespec, the user would have to most likely explicitly
> > choose to do that.
> >
> > - Users should know what kind of timestamps the device produces. This
> > includes existing and future kernels. What should be considered are
> > uninformed porting drivers back and forth across kernel versions and
> > out-of-date kernel header files.
> >
> > - Device-dependent timestamps. Some devices such as the uvcvideo ones
> > produce device-dependent timestamps for synchronising video and audio,
> > both
> > produced by the same physical hardware device. For uvcvideo these
> > timestamps are unsigned 32-bit integers.
> >
> > - There's also another clock, Linux-specific raw monotonic clock (as in
> > clock_gettime(CLOCK_RAW_MONOTONIC, ...)) that could be better in some use
> > cases than the regular monotonic clock. The difference is that the raw
> > monotonic clock is free from the NTP adjustments. It would be nice for the
> > user to be able to choose the clock used for timestamps. This is
> > especially
> > important for device-dependent timestamps: not all applications can be
> > expected to be able to use them.
> >
> > - The field adjacent to timestamp, timecode, is 128 bits wide, and not
> > used
> > by a single driver. This field could be re-used.
> >
> >
> > Possible solutions
> > ==================
> >
> > Not all of the solutions below that have been proposed are mutually
> > exclusive. That's also what's making the choice difficult: the ultimate
> > solution to the issue of timestamping may involve several of these --- or
> > possibly something better that's not on the list.
> >
> >
> > Use of timespec
> > ---------------
> >
> > If we can conclude timespec will always fit into the size of timeval (or
> > timecode) we could use timespec instead. The solution should still make
> > the use of timespec explicit to the user space. This seems to conflict
> > with
> > the idea of making monotonic timestamps the default: the default can't be
> > anything incompatible with timeval, and at the same time it's the most
> > important that the monotonic timestamps are timespec.
>
> We have to keep timeval. Changing this will break the ABI. I see absolutely
> no reason to use timespec for video. At 60 Hz a frame takes 16.67 ms, and
> that's far, far removed from ns precisions. Should we ever have to support
> high-speed cameras running at 60000 Hz, then we'll talk again.
>
> For me this is a non-issue.
>
> > Kernel version as indicator of timestamp
> > ----------------------------------------
> >
> > Conversion of drivers to use monotonic timestamp is trivial, so the
> > conversion could be done once and for all drivers. The kernel version
> > could
> > be used to indicate the type of the timestamp.
> >
> > If this approach is taken care must be taken when new drivers are
> > integrated: developers sometimes use old kernels for development and might
> > also use an old driver for guidance on timestamps, thus using real-time
> > timestamps when monotonic timestamps should be used.
>
> More importantly, this also fails when users use out-of-tree drivers.
>
> > This approach has an
> > advantage over the capability flag below: which is that we don't populate
> > the interface with essentially dead definitions.
>
> Using a kernel version to decide whether some feature is available or not is
> IMHO something of a last resort. It's very application unfriendly.
> > Capability flag for monotonic timestamps
> > ----------------------------------------
> >
> > A capability flag can be used to tell whether the timestamp is monotonic.
> > However, it's not extensible cleanly to provide selectable timestamps.
> > These are not features that are needed right now, though.
> >
> > The upside of this option is ease of implementation and use, but it's not
> > extensible. Also we're left with a flag that's set for all drivers: in the
> > end it provides no information to the user and is only noise in the spec.
> >
> >
> > Control for timestamp type
> > --------------------------
> >
> > Using a control to tell the type of the timestamp is extensible but not as
> > easy to implement than the capability flag: each and every device would
> > get
> > an additional control. The value should likely be also file handle
> > specific, and we do not have file handle specific controls yet.
>
> Yes, we do. You can make per-file handle controls. M2M devices need that.
>
> I'm not sure why this would be filehandle specific, BTW.
>
> > In the meantime the control could be read-only, and later made read-write
> > when the timestamp type can be made selectable. Much of he work of
> > timestamping can be done by the framework: drivers can use a single helper
> > function and need to create one extra standard control.
> >
> > Should the control also have an effect on the types of the timestamps in
> > V4L2 events? Likely yes.
>
> You are missing one other option:
>
> Using v4l2_buffer flags to report the clock
> -------------------------------------------
>
> By defining flags like this:
>
> V4L2_BUF_FLAG_CLOCK_MASK 0x7000
> /* Possible Clocks */
> V4L2_BUF_FLAG_CLOCK_UNKNOWN 0x0000 /* system or monotonic, we don't know
*/
> V4L2_BUF_FLAG_CLOCK_MONOTONIC 0x1000
>
> you could tell the application which clock is used.
>
> This does allow for more clocks to be added in the future and clock
> selection would then be done by a control or possibly an ioctl. For now
> there are no plans to do such things, so this flag should be sufficient.
> And it can be implemented very efficiently. It works with existing drivers
> as well, since they will report CLOCK_UNKNOWN.
>
> I am very much in favor of this approach.
>
> > Device-dependent timestamp
> > --------------------------
> >
> > Should we agree on selectable timestamps, the existing timestamp field (or
> > a union with another field of different type) could be used for the
> > device-dependent timestamps.
>
> No. Device timestamps should get their own field. You want to be able to
> relate device timestamps with the monotonic timestamps, so you need both.
> > Alternatively we can choose to re-use the
> > existing timecode field.
> >
> > At the moment there's no known use case for passing device-dependent
> > timestamps at the same time with monotonic timestamps.
>
> Well, the use case is there, but there is no driver support. The device
> timestamps should be 64 bits to accomodate things like PTS and DTS from
> MPEG streams. Since timecode is 128 bits we might want to use two u64 fields
> or perhaps 4 u32 fields.
>
> > Now what?
> > =========
> >
> > Almost as many options have been presented as there were opinions, but we
> > need to agree to have a single one. My personal leaning is on using a
> > control for the purpose as it is the most flexible alternative. I'd still
> > need to see an implementation of that but it doesn't seem that difficult,
> > especially when it's read-only. And even for read-write control the vast
> > majority of the work can be done by the V4L2 framework.
> >
> > Questions, comments and opinions are very, very welcome.
>
> Regards,
>
> Hans
--
Regards,
Laurent Pinchart
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