On 24/02/2023 11:00, Pekka Paalanen wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:50:51 +0000
Tvrtko Ursulin <tvrtko.ursulin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 24/02/2023 10:24, Pekka Paalanen wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 09:41:46 +0000
Tvrtko Ursulin <tvrtko.ursulin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 24/02/2023 09:26, Pekka Paalanen wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:51:48 -0800
Rob Clark <robdclark@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 1:38 AM Pekka Paalanen <ppaalanen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 07:37:26 -0800
Rob Clark <robdclark@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 1:49 AM Pekka Paalanen <ppaalanen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
...
On another matter, if the application uses SET_DEADLINE with one
timestamp, and the compositor uses SET_DEADLINE on the same thing with
another timestamp, what should happen?
The expectation is that many deadline hints can be set on a fence.
The fence signaller should track the soonest deadline.
You need to document that as UAPI, since it is observable to userspace.
It would be bad if drivers or subsystems would differ in behaviour.
It is in the end a hint. It is about giving the driver more
information so that it can make better choices. But the driver is
even free to ignore it. So maybe "expectation" is too strong of a
word. Rather, any other behavior doesn't really make sense. But it
could end up being dictated by how the hw and/or fw works.
It will stop being a hint once it has been implemented and used in the
wild long enough. The kernel userspace regression rules make sure of
that.
Yeah, tricky and maybe a gray area in this case. I think we eluded
elsewhere in the thread that renaming the thing might be an option.
So maybe instead of deadline, which is a very strong word, use something
along the lines of "present time hint", or "signalled time hint"? Maybe
reads clumsy. Just throwing some ideas for a start.
You can try, but I fear that if it ever changes behaviour and
someone notices that, it's labelled as a kernel regression. I don't
think documentation has ever been the authoritative definition of UABI
in Linux, it just guides drivers and userspace towards a common
understanding and common usage patterns.
So even if the UABI contract is not documented (ugh), you need to be
prepared to set the UABI contract through kernel implementation.
To be the devil's advocate it probably wouldn't be an ABI regression but
just an regression. Same way as what nice(2) priorities mean hasn't
always been the same over the years, I don't think there is a strict
contract.
Having said that, it may be different with latency sensitive stuff such
as UIs though since it is very observable and can be very painful to users.
If you do not document the UABI contract, then different drivers are
likely to implement it differently, leading to differing behaviour.
Also userspace will invent wild ways to abuse the UABI if there is no
documentation guiding it on proper use. If userspace or end users
observe different behaviour, that's bad even if it's not a regression.
I don't like the situation either, but it is what it is. UABI stability
trumps everything regardless of whether it was documented or not.
I bet userspace is going to use this as a "make it faster, make it
hotter" button. I would not be surprised if someone wrote a LD_PRELOAD
library that stamps any and all fences with an expired deadline to
just squeeze out a little more through some weird side-effect.
Well, that's hopefully overboard in scaring, but in the end, I would
like to see UABI documented so I can have a feeling of what it is for
and how it was intended to be used. That's all.
We share the same concern. If you read elsewhere in these threads you
will notice I have been calling this an "arms race". If the ability to
make yourself go faster does not required additional privilege I also
worry everyone will do it at which point it becomes pointless. So yes, I
do share this concern about exposing any of this as an unprivileged uapi.
Is it possible to limit access to only compositors in some sane way?
Sounds tricky when dma-fence should be disconnected from DRM..
Maybe it's not that bad in this particular case, because we are talking
only about boosting GPU clocks which benefits everyone (except
battery life) and it does not penalize other programs like e.g.
job priorities do.
Apart from efficiency that you mentioned, which does not always favor
higher clocks, sometimes thermal budget is also shared between CPU and
GPU. So more GPU clocks can mean fewer CPU clocks. It's really hard to
make optimal choices without the full coordination between both schedulers.
But that is even not the main point, which is that if everyone sets the
immediate deadline then having the deadline API is a bit pointless. For
instance there is a reason negative nice needs CAP_SYS_ADMIN.
However Rob has also pointed out the existence of uclamp.min via
sched_setattr which is unprivileged and can influence frequency
selection in the CPU world, so I conceded on that point. If CPU world
has accepted it so can we I guess.
So IMO we are back to whether we can agree defining it is a hint is good
enough, be in via the name of the ioctl/flag itself or via documentation.
Drivers are not going to use the deadline for scheduling priorities,
right? I don't recall seeing any mention of that.
...right?
I wouldn't have thought it would be beneficial to preclude that, or
assume what drivers would do with the info to begin with.
For instance in i915 we almost had a deadline based scheduler which was
much fairer than the current priority sorted fifo and in an ideal world
we would either revive or re-implement that idea. In which case
considering the fence deadline would naturally slot in and give true
integration with compositor deadlines (not just boost clocks and pray it
helps).
Regards,
Tvrtko
